Is Gaming Cheating?

[ihatepickles]

On the suggestion of Lee Bell, this is a poll to let members voice their thoughts on the matter. There's no maybe options, as these cases are clear cut yes or no questions. Please assume we're discussing safe shooting practices at all times, we're not shooting steel at 3 yards (DQ infraction) or breaking the 180 rule (DQ).

Practical shooting is distinct from other shooting disciplines in that the responsibility for determining the best, safe solution to the problem presented by a course of fire is the competitor's. In other words, practical shooting intends to test the ability to think in addition to testing the ability to shoot rapidly and accurately. That intent is formalized in the Practical Shooting Handbook, in which IPSC 1.1.5 says, "IPSC matches are freestyle".

- National Classification Course Book, 2004

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

[Scout454]

1 - Local stage designers often don't list mesh or plastic as hard cover - and they know someone will shoot through it. We've even done this in Area and Section matches.

2 - The stage briefing said "in the box". Not with the lid closed.

3 - Step over the line and make a tough shot or run 10 yards, go around a wall and then engage a target? No brainer.

Edited 'cause I've got fat fingers.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Scout454

[Flexmoney]

Better check your rule book:

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.5.2) in

the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision

screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard

cover”.

[blackdragon]

Nylon mesh is real hard to tape!!!

Ivan

AKA ( Cheater )

[Scout454]

Flex,

Believe that is only in the 2004 book. Reverse was true before IIRC.

All the local 3-gun matches (IMGA) I shoot will say nothing or the specify hard cover. They will set stages up that force you to shoot through the mesh from time to time.

[open17]

Better check your rule book:

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.5.2) in

the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision

screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard

cover”.

+1----Flex, Ya beat me to it!

Bill

[SmittyFL]

1- No, Flex is on it

2- Yes

3- Yes....it's also a crappy stage design. Which is generally the case when all these "gaming" issues really make a difference.

[Scout454]

My mistake on 1. We have had a lot of plastic cover at Area and Section matches over the past 10 years but it must have been listed as soft cover - I do know we've shot through it. The local 3 Gun matches don't stipulate and if you can see it you can shoot it.

2 and 3 remain as a firm yes.

[HSMITH]

Being fairly new to the sport yet, almost two whole long big ol' years under my belt , I still ask the experienced shooters and RO's if what I think I can do is really within the rules. That said, if there isn't a rule or something in the WSB that specifically excludes what I think will work best I am going to do it. I have shot stages at my ability level and absolutely had my ass handed to me on a platter by shooters of similar abilities simply because their experience level allows them to see 'holes' in the stage that I didn't see. I now view that as part of the 'freestyle' element, and assume that finding the 'holes' is my responsibility. Sometimes there is a hole, but on a lot of stages locally there are no holes. When there are no holes I interpret that as the stage being layed out by someone that really and truly understands the sport.

BTW, I really REALLY hate the snow fence walls, if I can see through them I should be able to shoot through them but that is a personal peeve of mine.

[uscbigdawg]

1 - Flex is on it, but during the walk through, to clarify it for the crowd, I'll ask the MD/RO.

2 - Absolutely, but again, to level out the playing field, I'll pose the question.

3 - Yeah, but if it's a 'tough' shot vs. a procedural, I'll just aim.

Rich

ETA: If you step out of a shooting area, I'll hit you with a procedural per shot fired. Hopefully this is outlined in the WSB too.

Edited February 7, 2007 by uscbigdawg

[ihatepickles]

Better check your rule book:

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.5.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”.

Hmm, I didn't realize this was covered by the rulebook when I started the poll. It skews the poll somewhat since our discussion has so far been about what's allowed if the rules don't specifically cover the topic. My bad, is there was a way to get the poll back on track?

[open17]

Hmm, I didn't realize this was covered by the rulebook when I started the poll. It skews the poll somewhat since our discussion has so far been about what's allowed if the rules don't specifically cover the topic. My bad, is there was a way to get the poll back on track?

Kind of suprises me that apparently half of the people responding to the poll don't

know it's against the rules. Pretty sure it was also against the rules in the red book.

I recall a shooter getting procedurals for shooting through a snow fence wall at Area 1

in Bend in 2003.

Does anyone have a red book lying around to check?

Snow fence as walls--light, cheap, wind resistant. Also a safety factor in using it,

the RO can see who is downrange.

Bill

[Flexmoney]

Scenario 3 is a bit off too. You can do it, but if it helps the score, then you have the per shot penalties that would apply:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground beyond a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage while faulting, the competitor will be assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, instead of a single penalty. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting a line.

The actually likelihood of "If a target can be safely engaged outside of a fault line and despite the procedural penalty it helps your score, may you do it" is somewhat diminished.

[ihatepickles]

Senario 3 is a bit off too. You can do it, but if it helps the score, then you have the per shot penalties that would apply:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground beyond a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage while faulting, the competitor will beassessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, instead of a single penalty. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting a line.

That's cool, assess me 2 penalties for the 2 shots on paper, or 1 penalty for the shot on steel. If it saves me 6+ seconds it's worth it. I did stipulate in the poll to assume the shots helped the score, I didn't want to paint a long winded scenario to make the reader do the math on the decision - just whether it may be done.

Edited February 7, 2007 by ihatepickles

[Flexmoney]

So..

1 - No, because all props are actually hard cover.

2 - Yes

3 - Yes, but not likely...as per shot penalties could apply.

[D.Hayden]

Flex, in the last case it's only max of 1 penatly right, only to the max of scoring shots?

[XD Niner]

So..

1 - No, because all props are actually hard cover.

2 - Yes

3 - Yes, but not likely...as per shot penalties could apply.

+1 to Flex's reply. The orange mesh is routinely used at matches because it is cheap and it easy to haul and set up. Everyone I know regards it as hard cover whether it is specified as so or not.

As for the other two, if the stage is intentionally or unintentionally designed to allow these option and you want to take the penalties with N0. 3, by all means have at it.

[Flexmoney]

Flex, in the last case it's only max of 1 penatly right, only to the max of scoring shots?

Well...it depends...you kinda said two different things there.

It is up to the maximum amount of scoring hits available on those targets...or words to that effect (see rule book for actual wording).

About the only time you'll see a situation like that is, as Smitty suggests, it is terrible stage design. It would almost have to be one single piece of steel...and the time saved would have to be a lot...and, the hit factor would have to play out just right too. Chances are, if all that comes together, then the shooter should check dig a bit deeper into the bag-o-tricks and consider not engaging the target at all (a valid strategy)...as the time it takes to step out of bounds and take the shot may just offset the FTE as well.

[AK74]

In an ideal world matches would be as setup days before match day, several experienced competitors would walk them looking for problems and the written description would be proof read by a one or more RO in addition to the author, in the real world this dose not always happen, even at large matches but it should, if these gaming examples are from a big (Area and above) matches some one defiantly dropped the ball.

On the other hand Local matches are full of these type of gaming opportunities. Setup is often completed just before dark the night before or just before the walk thro the morning of the match, the written descriptions are often less then compete, time to completely debug the stages is often lacking.

IMHO it may not be cheating but its not very sporting either, to me freestyle is not about looking for typos in the course description or mistakes by the volunteers that setup your local match.

[Lee Bell]

Better poll than the last one.

I answered question 2 because it was the only way to complete the poll. I would have liked to answer "I would have to ask." I don't know the understood standard, if there is one, for the box question. If there isn't, I say "go for it" and, therefore answered yes to that question.

[Crusher]

Should add a fourth question to the poll:

"Are stage designers and the WSB they establish PARAMOUNT toward CLEAR stage proceedures and associated penatlties."

I have no problem with picking apart a well intenioned but deficient WSB during a walk through, and then proceeding to find "holes", it's part of the learning process that takes average stage designers and turns them into "GREAT' stage designers, provided they stick with it.

[SmittyFL]

Hope this isn't hijacking...

But maybe we need some type of 'aftermarket' stage design handbook. I'm absolutely NOT suggesting adding anything to the rule book.

It seems to me a lot of the 'local' stages around the country must suck; judging by this thread, the ones prior, and some of the proposed new rules.

Sure occasionally there will be some loophole in a local stage. It usually doesn't make that much difference in my opinion, or it gets pointed out by the first squad that is up...or during the walkthru.

It just isn't that hard to set up a freestyle field course within the rules that is truly "shoot 'em as you see 'em". Our clubs are low on man power and somewhat limited on props, all but one club has to be set up and torn down the same day. So that argument doesn't fly. I supppose if your club doesn't have any walls or barrels or no-shoot targets then maybe...but then you have other issues as well.

I was looking at that stagebuilder website last weekend looking for some ideas for the Sunday match and realized most of the stages on there are horrible. As least a lot of the ones I looked at. Box to box to box or port to port to port. 4 targets from here, 4 targets from there, 4 targets from there, etc.

I think that is a large part of all these supposed problems. If the stage can be gamed to make such a large difference in the score then there is something wrong with the stage. Period.

In the example from question three in this poll; put three targets and a steel down there and problem is solved. Now you have to go to the final shooting position. Or throw up a no-shoot to block the shot in question. If it's something that wasn't noticed until a squad or two already shot it...well then...that happens. But it should be the exception not the norm.

Edited February 7, 2007 by SmittyFL

[Lee Bell]

Better check your rule book:

9.1.6 Unless specifically described as “soft cover” (see Rule 4.1.5.2) in the written stage briefing, all props, walls, barriers, vision screens and other obstacles are deemed to be impenetrable “hard cover”.

Hmm, I didn't realize this was covered by the rulebook when I started the poll. It skews the poll somewhat since our discussion has so far been about what's allowed if the rules don't specifically cover the topic. My bad, is there was a way to get the poll back on track?

It's still a pretty good indication of what we're trying to get to. Look how many answered it was fine, both in previous discussions and in the poll, even when it is specifically covered by the printed rules (as opposed to the stage description).

Lee

[LPatterson]

[devil's advocate]

1. Mesh snow fence is NOT a vision screen so if it is not designated as hard cover then I can shoot through it IF the stage description "Says engage all targets as they become visible". When mesh fence is used it does not keep people from seeing through it but steers people the direction the course designer intended UNLESS it is designated hard cover. Even when designated hard cover it allows the shooter to see & index on a target & shoot as soon as the barier is breeched. Mesh fence at a Nationals event is primarily to allow the spectators to see what is happening. I reached this decision after the argument with a shooter about a mesh fence that was designated hard cover who wanted to know what his penalties would be if he shot thru it & how could I prove it. The RM's ruling was if he shot thru it & any bullet hit the fence it would be unsportsmanlike conduct & he could go home.

[/devil's advocate off]

Freestyle can be pushed too far.

[Bear23]

I replied:

1. No

2. Yes

3. No

Walls and props are hard cover, Just because its mesh doesn't mean you can shoot through it. I', not about to spent 24 hours building solid walls for a stage at a local match just because of some guy that wants to push the envelope.

The gun is in the box, didn't say if lid is closed.

I wouldn't because of what Flex said..It is a per shot penalty...I don't want to be down 20 points...10 might be OK, It would depend upon the COF