Pin Shooter Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 This should open a nice can of worms...... I have a 6.5inch slabbed barrel on my .38 super. I only shoot 125PF loads with this gun for ICORE. When I do shoot it at USPSA matches, I shoot all eight in Minor, in Open Auto class. I am not of slender build so a little recoil is not an issue, and I have struggled to find any difference on a timer between splits, with or without ports. I am seeing all these pretty new guns being built, and they all have ports........ Also, the reason that the barrel is 6.5 inches, is because that is what we had at the time. It grouped well, so now I am afraid to shorten it. Does anyone have any data on accuracy lost when shortening an open gun...ie no sight radius loss. Teach / Convince me..... Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) This should open a nice can of worms......I have a 6.5inch slabbed barrel on my .38 super. I only shoot 125PF loads with this gun for ICORE. When I do shoot it at USPSA matches, I shoot all eight in Minor, in Open Auto class. I am not of slender build so a little recoil is not an issue, and I have struggled to find any difference on a timer between splits, with or without ports. I am seeing all these pretty new guns being built, and they all have ports........ Also, the reason that the barrel is 6.5 inches, is because that is what we had at the time. It grouped well, so now I am afraid to shorten it. Does anyone have any data on accuracy lost when shortening an open gun...ie no sight radius loss. Teach / Convince me..... Mark What do you hope to gain by shortening the barrel? The length/weight may be helping re muzzle rise. It looks like a beautiful gun as is. If ports don't help YOU, don't port. Send the money you save to me. If you do decide to have it done, Randy Lee, of course, and Mark at Pinnacle do beautiful work. I have an open ported gun and some limited guns. I don't think my abilities allow me to take advantage of the porting even though I notice a little less muzzle rise. I probably shoot the open gun a little faster mostly due to not having to refocus my eyes, especially on medium to long range targets, but, there is a slight difference on Bill drills. I would beat myself with the open gun vis a vis limited, but not very many other people. Make yourself happy. Liking what you are shooting helps. Edited January 18, 2007 by underlug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Mark, for low pressure loads I really think porting creates mostly placebo benefits. Back when we were still regularly shooting pins, most of the more successful wheelgunners didn't bother with porting at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmd Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Mark, I've been asking myself that same question (for light steel loads) as well - I am also trying to find what twist works best with light bullets. What I did was purchase two barrel blanks: Douglas (.357) 1in 14 Lothar Walther (.355) 1 in 10 I cut the blanks into 7 inch lengths and had a local smith thread the ends of 4 blanks (2 ea.). I have limited metal working abilities and a small shop, so with two of the blanks - I turned them down (as I wanted a light wt barrel), crowned, taylor throated and added 4 small tapered ports and fitted them. I have done a ton of load testing in a Ransom Rest recently with both barrels using several different powder/bullet/case combinations. So far the .357 barrel shoots best with .355 bullets (go figure..). So to get back on track with your question - once I find a load that is accurate and handles well I plan to make a similar unported barrel - test it for accuracy and then test it side by side with the ported one (I am using two 627 revos with similar actions). Hopefully I'll be able to judge how each feels and if I need to alter the ports - for me it's trial and error. My advice would be since you are happy with the barrel you have - take it off (or get another 627) and have another barrel fit + ported and then try it out - if you don't like it - or it does not meet your standards you'll have the option of putting the barrel back on that works for you. Good luck Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) +1 to Pauls post, he has spent a lot of time in that project! What I will say is that Bud Bond went through all the trials and tribulations like you are doing. I would call him and get his two cents. I did that when I had the short colt built. I had Mark's Tornado ports put in it, and am glad I did. There is some benefit, even if it is mental. Even with minor loads, if there was no benefit, Bud wouldnt port his Revo barrels, and I know that he does. If you need his number let me know! And to answer your question, you "shouldnt" have any degradation of accuracy porting your barrel as long as the smith knows what they are doing.....and if you havent, a taylor throat will help immensely as well. DougC Edited January 18, 2007 by DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hi Guys..... Paul, for limited metal working ability , you sure are thorough. The main reason that I was thinking about shortening it down, was to make it more "pointable ". Having said that, I know that the really light guns, " Scanduium " seem a bit flippy to me. I guess that comes down to the difference between Pepsi and Coke. The actual muzzle flip that I perceive at the moment, isn't limiting my shooting, and I try my best not to keep reinventing the wheel. The best part of this forum, is the opportunity to learn from other peoples experiences, and sometimes mistakes. Unfortunately we all know what it is like to pick up someone elses gun and do the old Ooooh Aaahhh, and then wonder if you could pick up a thousandth of a second if you just tweaked this or that. Has anyone done any experiments with long versus short barrels for accuracy ( Excluding sight radius advantages ) ie.....Are there any accuracy benefits out to 50 yards with the longer barrel.... Thanks Guys Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hi Guys.....Paul, for limited metal working ability , you sure are thorough. The main reason that I was thinking about shortening it down, was to make it more "pointable ". Having said that, I know that the really light guns, " Scanduium " seem a bit flippy to me. I guess that comes down to the difference between Pepsi and Coke. The actual muzzle flip that I perceive at the moment, isn't limiting my shooting, and I try my best not to keep reinventing the wheel. The best part of this forum, is the opportunity to learn from other peoples experiences, and sometimes mistakes. Unfortunately we all know what it is like to pick up someone elses gun and do the old Ooooh Aaahhh, and then wonder if you could pick up a thousandth of a second if you just tweaked this or that. Has anyone done any experiments with long versus short barrels for accuracy ( Excluding sight radius advantages ) ie.....Are there any accuracy benefits out to 50 yards with the longer barrel.... Thanks Guys Mark Mark, I have a friend who built a 2" Snubby Open Revolver, for another friend. It had Crebbs (Side porting) and three angled hybrid ports on the Barrel. While I did not shoot this gun on paper I had no problem hitting the 22 silohoute rams at 100 yards or meters what ever they were messured in. I used a 160 grain lead moly bullet and Solo powder in a 38 special case. I believe the barrel was a 1 in 10 twist, which seemed to be made for the 160 grain bullet. All the barrel length you need is stabalize the bullet. Info worth what you paid for it. As it is already an open gun, port it just ahead of the scope. I will see you at the Mid- West Regional. rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sahlberg Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Mark, None of these people have steered you wrong as porting in any revolver at best is a 5% advantage whereas a good trigger job can help you alot more and with lots of practice, help even more. In my quest for less muzzle flip, I had experimented with 6-1/2" bbls and all types of porting with holes at angles as well as straight up and down. The "jet blast" theory of porting is simply not effective beyong this 5%. A true compensator cut in a longer barrel where the gases hit the baffle work much better but ONLY in high pressure loads. I chose a shorter bbl and minor loads that not only accomplished all my goals, minor makes a revolver last alot longer too. I have more than 50K 130 gr RN Montana Gold bullets down my original 5" 627 in .38 Colt Shorts and there is still very little wear even on the forcing cone where it hits after 3/4" of "freebore" travel. Porting of barrels is definately a "placebo" effect, sorry gunsmiths but you will have to make your money doing real gunsmithing....like on triggers and timing :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Before porting a gun, test it. Take some shots on paper and see what your dot is doing and where it is going. Do some 8 shot Bill drills at various distances and see where the dot goes in relation to the A-zone. I would record the split times. But...and this could be important... Then try the Timing Drill that Matt Burkett has...using different amounts of grip strength applied to the gun. See if that makes a difference from you baseline (established above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 a taylor throat will help immensely as well. Funny...an 11-degree forcing cone chamfer was pretty much the revolversmith's standard for many years, but it never really attracted much attention from shooters. Then along comes a 10-degree forcing cone chamfer and it's the hot ticket people will pay extra money for because it has the cool-sounding name "Taylor Throat." (And here's where I run into my slightly ambivalent feelings toward Randy Lee and his custom revolver business.....on one hand, he's a talented 'smith and genuinely nice guy.....on the other hand, he is definitely a marketer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Hell, all I know is the two stock revolvers that I had it done to shoot better at 25-50yds with it done vs. before it was done... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 This should open a nice can of worms......I have a 6.5inch slabbed barrel on my .38 super. I only shoot 125PF loads with this gun for ICORE. When I do shoot it at USPSA matches, I shoot all eight in Minor, in Open Auto class. I am not of slender build so a little recoil is not an issue, and I have struggled to find any difference on a timer between splits, with or without ports. I am seeing all these pretty new guns being built, and they all have ports........ Also, the reason that the barrel is 6.5 inches, is because that is what we had at the time. It grouped well, so now I am afraid to shorten it. Does anyone have any data on accuracy lost when shortening an open gun...ie no sight radius loss. Teach / Convince me..... Mark Hi Mark. I'm from the port side of the discussion and believe the angled hole type ports (tornado?) do have there place on an open gun. ......there......I said it again...... Damn, why don't I listen to those more experienced shooters Okay, porting is all up to you Dude, if your using light bullets going fast then maybe porting will work for you, if your using 200 grn rnd nose over 2.3 grns of red dot then maybe not. YOU will be the only one who will be able to tell if it's worth it, so, as somebody said, try a new barrel before you mess up that fine looking one you have now. IIRC, during the waning days of 2nd Chance and pin shooting the winning-ist shooters where using ports, Jerry's "Cajun Pin Buster" as an example. You yourself saw a lot of these shooters in PA. Jerry uses a 627 barrel that he supposedly drilled to add ports, he uses this very well in ICORE. And he gets single digit standards scores so it must be somewhat accurate ! The debate between porting or not will probably last as long as the debate about mainsprings, try what you want, try other peoples guns to see how they feel, in the end it will only matter to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 IIRC, during the waning days of 2nd Chance and pin shooting the winning-ist shooterswhere using ports, Jerry's "Cajun Pin Buster" as an example. Dunno Dave. He may have played around with weird barrels and stuff when he hooked into the Clark thing, but most of Jerry's best work over the years was done with that plain 8-3/8" skinny barreled 27. I tried all sorts of crap myself over the years, everything from ported bull barrels to a 10-5/8" tube on a 29 we called the "John Holmes Gun." I also never found anything that worked better than a plain 8-3/8" skinny barreled 27. Now I'll grant you, 230-grain pin loads are a different application altogether. Still, I'm from Missouri on barrel porting, and nobody has yet "shown me" that it does much. Then again, who knows, I could be wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Still, I'm from Missouri on barrel porting, and nobody has yet "shown me" that it does much. Then again, who knows, I could be wrong! Ditto. I've compared ported/non-ported and even added ports (and wasted a barrel). I am thoroughly underwhelmed by ports. Compensators can be effective, but ports are not compensators, even though compensators do have ports. Somebody said that snub .357 guns can be taken from completely unshootable due to recoil down to sort of controllable with a good porting job.......YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Dave.... If I remember correctly, you are one of the Bowling Pin Greats. Just before the Australian Government banned .45's I had a 625 built specifically for pins. I only used it in a match 2 times. Once at the Australian bowling Pin Championships, and then at the Topton match. I loved that gun dearly, even though it broke 2 dots in 6 revolver tables. That was also my best year in Pin Gun, and guess what I used.....the 625. I had a "real" single port comp on that, and it worked like a charm...210pf. So I do believe that comps work, but I just haven't seen any real advantages with the lower power factor. Jerry doesn't really count for these mortal conversations. He could shoot pins well with a snubby, although I would like to go head to head on some pin tables with him one day. I am leaning towards Bill's placebo theory, and like Doug said, if it makes you feel better about shooting the gun, then it is a win in itself. So for now, I think that I have talked myself out of ports, but now I can concern myself with the possibilty that if I shorten the barrel, ( an inch or so ) will that weight reduction increase the flip that much......( Aren't we whiney.....Ooooh 125pf flips too much ) I remember when I stood up to piss. Next........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I remember when I stood up to piss. Mark, not your fault....remember Momma rules the roost right now until Junior arrives... DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) a taylor throat will help immensely as well. Funny...an 11-degree forcing cone chamfer was pretty much the revolversmith's standard for many years, but it never really attracted much attention from shooters. Then along comes a 10-degree forcing cone chamfer and it's the hot ticket people will pay extra money for because it has the cool-sounding name "Taylor Throat." (And here's where I run into my slightly ambivalent feelings toward Randy Lee and his custom revolver business.....on one hand, he's a talented 'smith and genuinely nice guy.....on the other hand, he is definitely a marketer.) Taylor throating, according to Jim Stroh, is the lengthening of the throat one or two caliber lengths. (Stroh then, additionally, recuts the crown concentric to the forcing cone to increase accuracy.) The theory is that accuracy is increased by the stabilization of the bullet before it encounters the rifling. It is explained on his web site at <alphaprecisioninc.com>....revolver accuracy Edited January 19, 2007 by underlug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 a taylor throat will help immensely as well. Funny...an 11-degree forcing cone chamfer was pretty much the revolversmith's standard for many years, but it never really attracted much attention from shooters. Then along comes a 10-degree forcing cone chamfer and it's the hot ticket people will pay extra money for because it has the cool-sounding name "Taylor Throat." (And here's where I run into my slightly ambivalent feelings toward Randy Lee and his custom revolver business.....on one hand, he's a talented 'smith and genuinely nice guy.....on the other hand, he is definitely a marketer.) Taylor throating, according to Jim Stroh, is the lengthening of the throat one or two caliber lengths. (Stroh then, additionally, recuts the crown concentric to the forcing cone to increase accuracy.) The theory is that accuracy is increased by the stabilization of the bullet before it encounters the rifling. It is explained on his web site at <alphaprecisioninc.com>....revolver accuracy Well, Jim Stroh has a business to run, and he can fluff it up however he wants, but "Taylor Throating" is nothing more than applying a 10-degree chamfer to the forcing cone. It's a easy five-minute job, but I don't suppose the gunsmiths want us to know that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) a taylor throat will help immensely as well. Funny...an 11-degree forcing cone chamfer was pretty much the revolversmith's standard for many years, but it never really attracted much attention from shooters. Then along comes a 10-degree forcing cone chamfer and it's the hot ticket people will pay extra money for because it has the cool-sounding name "Taylor Throat." (And here's where I run into my slightly ambivalent feelings toward Randy Lee and his custom revolver business.....on one hand, he's a talented 'smith and genuinely nice guy.....on the other hand, he is definitely a marketer.) Taylor throating, according to Jim Stroh, is the lengthening of the throat one or two caliber lengths. (Stroh then, additionally, recuts the crown concentric to the forcing cone to increase accuracy.) The theory is that accuracy is increased by the stabilization of the bullet before it encounters the rifling. It is explained on his web site at <alphaprecisioninc.com>....revolver accuracy Well, Jim Stroh has a business to run, and he can fluff it up however he wants, but "Taylor Throating" is nothing more than applying a 10-degree chamfer to the forcing cone. It's a easy five-minute job, but I don't suppose the gunsmiths want us to know that.... Caveat Emptor Edited January 19, 2007 by underlug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 I had to look that one up........... Caveat Emptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmd Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I had to look that one up........... Caveat Emptor Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware". google is a wonderful thing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 My knowledge is this arena is limited so please bear with me, but I thought I remember hearing that one of the advantages of Taylor Throating is that any constrictions worked into the bore on a crush fit barrel is removed by the process. If this is correct any angle shallower than the original will help in this regard, and it looks like they chose 10 degrees over 11 degrees because, in the words of Spinal Tap: "it's one more". Granted it was the other way around in the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I had to look that one up........... Caveat Emptor Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware". google is a wonderful thing.. I first learned that phrase from an old Brady Bunch episode where Greg learned a hard lesson after buying a car from a buddy that turned out to be junk. My knowledge is this arena is limited so please bear with me, but I thought I remember hearing that one of the advantages of Taylor Throating is that any constrictions worked into the bore on a crush fit barrel is removed by the process. To the extent that any constrictions are created that way (I'm skeptical, but I suppose it might sometimes be an issue), any recutting of the forcing cone would take it away. I'm thinking about marketing a 10.5 degree forcing cone reamer, and asking Cliff to be the celebrity spokesman. The only problem is that the phrase "Walsh Throating" just sounds creepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I had to look that one up........... Caveat Emptor Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware". google is a wonderful thing.. I first learned that phrase from an old Brady Bunch episode where Greg learned a hard lesson after buying a car from a buddy that turned out to be junk. My knowledge is this arena is limited so please bear with me, but I thought I remember hearing that one of the advantages of Taylor Throating is that any constrictions worked into the bore on a crush fit barrel is removed by the process. To the extent that any constrictions are created that way (I'm skeptical, but I suppose it might sometimes be an issue), any recutting of the forcing cone would take it away. I'm thinking about marketing a 10.5 degree forcing cone reamer, and asking Cliff to be the celebrity spokesman. The only problem is that the phrase "Walsh Throating" just sounds creepy. I'd go with deep throating, but........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gans Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Ah Yes, the days of pin shooting. Where the 45acp didn't have enough of pressure to work a comp any bigger than 1 port. Unless you were a competitor and had the money to get serious. I don't think that barrel ports will do much with that light of a load. A small 1-2 port comp will help some, but you have to decide if the cost is worth the small amount of performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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