markwilliston Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 What are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 flat ring around the primer dimple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 The primers are round on the corners when they are new. They start to flatten as the pressure increases. The firing pin dent will also start to flatten back out. If they are smashed flat then you need to stop. The one on the right end is starting to have problems and it's a factory load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trg Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Found this 9mm at the range one day. Now that is a flattened primer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Followed by loose primer pockets, pierced primers, bulged cases and blown cases.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Now that is a flattened primer wacko.gif Holy crap! They should have quit long before seeing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Now that is a flattened primer wacko.gif Holy crap! They should have quit long before seeing that. That's pretty scawy! They're probably using an extended firing pin to stop the cratering/shearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 see the description and accompanying photos of excess pressure signs at www.38super.net on the Factory Ammuntion page, about 2/3 the way down the page. http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Found this 9mm at the range one day.Now that is a flattened primer Different brands of primers can have some effect on pressure. I had a 223 load with a batch of primers that looked like this picture. I changed primers and built the same load and the primers did not show any pressure signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Heck, before they banned 9-major, when the power factor was 175, this was not an uncommon thing to see. And you also saw a lot of this in 9x21 once 9x19 was banned. In Hawaii using a Super, I could use small pistol primers shooting 115gr bullets at 182pf without any problems/signs of pressure. But shooting the exact same load in the exact same gun in California produced flattened and/or pierced primers....and the pf was still around 182. Go figure - both were at sea level. So just seeing a flattened/pierced primer doesn't mean that there were dangerous pressure problems in all cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwilliston Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Thanks guys, I can happily say I haven't had that problem yet... that one primer looks like it's never gonna come out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bell Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 see the description and accompanying photos of excess pressure signs at www.38super.net on the Factory Ammuntion page, about 2/3 the way down the page.http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html hope this helps That's an excellent reference. I've been reading about pressure signs ever since I've been reloading, but seeing them pictured is a lot more informative than descriptions along. Thanks. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 +1 If just for the pictures (I haven't read the whole page...yet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 This is a great thread. Perhaps we could get it permanently tagged in the reloading section or if anyone is willing to collect all the photos to show what to look out for . . . ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 At least one local guy shooting 9mm Major has left cases like these on the ground during matches... Unsuitable powder selection, from what I can tell after talking to him (typically, too fast a burn rate). Then I get to hear the 9mm Major mantra - "But I'm only using it once and leaving it on the range..." "Back in the day", when the Tribrid barrel first came on the market, I knew a couple of guys shooting them w/ 115s at old major, and that was what their primers looked like, as well - in .38 Super... and then they started having primers drop out of cases as they were being extracted, and they'd get jams from it... If your primers look like that, you are shooting an extremely dangerous combination, analogous to playing with a live hand grenade. Do us all a favor and investigate a powder that doesn't do this... And, yes, there are appropriate powders for 9 Major.. maybe they don't "feel as good" or something, but they're not pushing 65K PSI, either.... I had a nice talk w/ Bob Londrigan re: some load testing he had done that resulted in a good amount of his reasoning to only recommend N105 and 4756 in his guns. I don't recall the specific details, but suffice it to say that, once you start seeing signs in the primers, you're *way* above even what would be considered a +P spec for these cartridges, and you're flirting with very real danger.... I avoid ROing people who's spent cases look like that for a reason... Ok, that's probably enough rant on load safety for today, boys and girls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I avoid ROing people who's spent cases look like that for a reason... What, you mean you don't have one of these in your standard RO kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I probably need one of those... The "Supah Face" guard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I probably need one of those... The "Supah Face" guard... Supah Supah Dupah (ears included) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I have two guns in 38 super. In both of them the primer corners are as rounded when fired as they are when freshly loaded. Same ammo in both guns. Winchester small rifle primers. However, one gun will cause the primer to be cratered ever so slightly (a raised bit of metal around the primer dimple), while the other exhibits no cratering at all. The cratering gun is a year-old SVI IMM open and has always cratered for me, while the non-cratering gun is an ancient Caspian singlestack and has never cratered for me. Might this be a difference in the firing pins? Is this excess pressure but it's masked somehow? Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Glen - most of us have long firing pins in our race guns to combat that effect. The fact of the matter is that we're driving race guns pretty hard, and even w/ slow powders, we're creating quite a bit of pressure. The long firing pin helps insure that the primer doesn't flow back into the firing pin tunnel. That may or may not be what you're describing - I'd have to see pictures to be certain. How do the shoulders of the primers look?? Its normal for the shoulders to be ever so slightly less rounded after firing (there's an animation out there showing why this happens), but more than that combined w/ cratering, and you might get concerned. Have you chrono'ed both guns? Its possible that your IMM has a shorter throat in the chamber, or something (should be an AET barrel, right?) than the Caspian, or some other difference between them that causes different pressure curves between the guns - but I'd think its probably that you've got a shorter firing pin in the IMM or something as my first thing to check... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 XRe ... The primer shoulders are ever so slightly less rounded, as you say they should be. I have to look very closely to see a difference between the fired and unfired primers. The Caspian was a gunsmithed gun but I don't know the details. The IMM is direct from the factory. Different length firing pins does make sense as I didn't ask for one from SVI. I'll check the firing pin lengths in both guns to see if there is a difference. For the chrono, the IMM makes about 175 pf and the Caspian makes about 180 pf with the same ammo in very close to the same conditions. I put the difference down to the shorter effective barrel length in the IMM as compared to the full size Caspian. The IMM is vastly flatter, though, and it does have an AET barrel. Thank you, Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txkid Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I am having presser problems “Flat primer with normal strike” according from the following web page superdude pointed. (Great info!!!) http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html I am just making 9mm with 124gn, Longshot 7.8gn and HS-6 8.0gn mix brass, CCI primer. Gun STI Trubor GM The other day I called STI and was told to switch out the firing pin to an extended one and hammer spring to a softer one, I really didn’t know why but I guess this is to suppress the primers ignition to slowdown the burn rate of the powder. Also I was told for 9mm major the slower the powder the easier to make major? I have been reading information that points to a different opinion and confused. Any opinions to lower the presser and still make major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 (edited) I am having presser problems “Flat primer with normal strike” according from the following web page superdude pointed. (Great info!!!) http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html I am just making 9mm with 124gn, Longshot 7.8gn and HS-6 8.0gn mix brass, CCI primer. Gun STI Trubor GM The other day I called STI and was told to switch out the firing pin to an extended one and hammer spring to a softer one, I really didn’t know why but I guess this is to suppress the primers ignition to slowdown the burn rate of the powder. Also I was told for 9mm major the slower the powder the easier to make major? I have been reading information that points to a different opinion and confused. Any opinions to lower the presser and still make major? I haven't found any powder that doesn't somewhat flatten powders primers loading 9 major. I use WSF now becasue it seems to flatten them the least. Edited August 5, 2008 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Txkid Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 HoMiE Thank you very much for your information. I feel better knowing I am not the only one getting flatten primers with 9mm major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I avoid ROing people who's spent cases look like that for a reason... What, you mean you don't have one of these in your standard RO kit? Maybe more like this----protect ALL the important parts! http://www.botachtactical.com/paulbodshiel.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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