Too Many B.S. Rules

[SmittyFL]

crazy pills. :-)

[BSeevers]

A 1911 can shoot in SS, L10 and Limited/Open if you are really into it. (I know most won't shoot a 10 rd gun in L/O but you can if you want)

All that's left is Production and Revolver. I don't get it. We invented Production to give the Glock/Sig/Beretta's a place to play to compete since they didn't with 1911's.

Edited December 4, 2006 by BSeevers

[ysued]

I knew someone was going to do it... that was the exact gun I figured you'd do it with! lol!ok... maybe their should be $$$ cutoff, say $1000. and keep em stock! Now we can shoot GI's milspecs, Custom II's Target II's, Rock rivers, yes the Spartan etc etc... with NO MODIFICATIONS!!!! rules.. No comps, no optics, and no custom work period... Is mit just me or dont most agree that a 1911 should be allowed in production? or am I taking crazy pills?

No, you are not taking crazy Pills.

I believe that a basic Stock class might be a good idea, but not at this time, there's other irons in the Fire at the BOD that need to get taken care of first.

[half inch groups]

A 1911 can shoot in SS, L10 and Limited/Open if you are really into it. (I know most won't shoot a 10 rd gun in L/O but you can if you want)

All that's left is Production and Revolver. I don't get it. We invented Production to give the Glock/Sig/Beretta's a place to play to compete since they didn't with 1911's.

Ok, good point. I'm glad you chimed in, because I read a lot of your posts and your answers always have truth and logic to them. that i can appreciate. Thanks for the key answer to my query.

makes a lot of sense. Interesting topic. glad the pills are wearing off.

[Nik Habicht]

Is mit just me or dont most agree that a 1911 should be allowed in production? or am I taking crazy pills?

Production ---- bad name, BTW, --- was allegedly, in part designed to be a place where a non SA semi-auto could play. With the exception of revolver and production, the 1911 is welcome in every other division --- that should be enough sandboxes to play in.....

[driver8M3]

Production ---- bad name, BTW, --- was allegedly, in part designed to be a place where a non SA semi-auto could play. With the exception of revolver and production, the 1911 is welcome in every other division --- that should be enough sandboxes to play in.....

yeah, we all know glocks can't compete with 1911s/2011s.

[38superman]

"B.S. Rules"???

Let's not forget how we got to where we are.

The different divisions were implemented to give shooters with different types of guns a level playing field to play on.

It was done so the guy that wants to shoot his revolver doesn't have to go head to head with a 30 round high tech shooting machine.

You could do away with all that and throw everybody into open where anything goes.

There's no doubt that many platforms can go "high tech".

There are folks out there now shooting open competitively with highly customized Glocks.

It's not about this gun or that manufacturer.

That's not why the divisions and the rules that define them exist.

What we now have is because of all the criticism about IPSC turning into an expensive arms race that Joe average couldn't afford.

We took a lot of heat about how our matches were just track meet hose fests that had nothing to do with "practical" shooting.

We didn't want prospective members to turn away because they didn't want, didn't understand, or couldn't afford a full blown race gun.

Our divisions and rules also reflect the ever-changing political environment and federal laws that come and go.

Furthermore, we have to be reasonably compatible with the International organization to support International competition.

All of that either matters or it doesn't. We can't have it both ways.

Tls

Edited December 4, 2006 by tlshores

[Bigbadaboom]

Why does "Good stage design" mean that no shooter in any division (Revolver doesn't count because it's obvious that they LOVE to reload) ever has to reload unless they are moving between two 9 round neutral arrays? Why do production and Lim 10 shooters have to have course design rules structured around those two divisions? Like it or not production does shoot against production, limited against limited etc. etc.

If we are going to make sure that "Good course design" means no static reloads then get them the hell out of classifiers because, as it is, most classifiers aren't even close to most real match stages.

I agree with thinning the rule book and we can start by getting rid of the 9 round neutral rule. It stifles creativity.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[sargenv]

Now, if you want to find a gun that has NO place in USPSA, is the 9mm Hi-Power!!

If you are hell bent on standard capacity mags, you can shoot Limited Minor, and if you don't want to go full cap, you can shoot L 10 minor. I don't see why you'd have an issue with a Hi-power. I know people who shoot L10 Minor with 627's (8 shot Revolver), H&K P7M8's, and other guns that shoot minor. Sure they aren't all that competitive, but you can still shoot them. I know a revolver shooter who shoots Open with his ICORE open revolver. He made B with it before taking a very long hiatus.

Another thing people are saying is the 8 shot arrays.. Current green book states that 9 shots is the max count for one array.

Vince

[ysued]

Great Post!!

Thanks

Y

Let's not forget how we got to where we are.

The different divisions were implemented to give shooters with different types of guns a level playing field to play on.

It was done so the guy that wants to shoot his revolver doesn't have to go head to head with a 30 round high tech shooting machine.

You could do away with all that and throw everybody into open where anything goes.

There's no doubt that many platforms can go "high tech".

There are folks out there now shooting open competitively with highly customized Glocks.

It's not about this gun or that manufacturer.

That's not why the divisions and the rules that define them exist.

What we now have is because of all the criticism about IPSC turning into an expensive arms race that Joe average couldn't afford.

We took a lot of heat about how our matches were just track meet hose fests that had nothing to do with "practical" shooting.

We didn't want prospective members to turn away because they didn't want, didn't understand, or couldn't afford a full blown race gun.

Our divisions and rules also reflect the ever-changing political environment and federal laws that come and go.

All of that either matters or it doen't. We can't have it both ways.

Tls

[JFD]

You want a division where nearly any gun can play? We already have it, it's called L-10.

Obviously a division we need to get rid of and replace with a 1911-only division

[ysued]

Yes, you can use it!!

But you are at a "Points disadvantage" from the Get go!!

Unlike Production where everybody shoots Minor, a 9mm Hi-Power doesn't have a "REAL" place in USPSA. Shooting Minor in a Division where both Minor and Major are scored is not competitive at all. Sure, you can do it if you want, but why??? The reason to shoot competition is to compete and you compete to win or place, not to get creamed because your gun will cost you time or points.

I'm not defending IDPA, but the 9mm Hi-Power has a place there.

I don't own a 9mm Hi-Power anymore, but I really like it.

I'm just stating a fact, the 9mm Hi-Power IS NOT competitive in "ANY" USPSA Division.

I'm not advocating for a Hi-Power only Division, just making a comment and stating facts for the sake of discusssion.

Now, if you want to find a gun that has NO place in USPSA, is the 9mm Hi-Power!!

If you are hell bent on standard capacity mags, you can shoot Limited Minor, and if you don't want to go full cap, you can shoot L 10 minor. I don't see why you'd have an issue with a Hi-power. I know people who shoot L10 Minor with 627's (8 shot Revolver), H&K P7M8's, and other guns that shoot minor. Sure they aren't all that competitive, but you can still shoot them. I know a revolver shooter who shoots Open with his ICORE open revolver. He made B with it before taking a very long hiatus.

Another thing people are saying is the 8 shot arrays.. Current green book states that 9 shots is the max count for one array.

Vince

[Crusher]

I agree with thinning the rule book and we can start by getting rid of the 9 round neutral rule. It stifles creativity

How so?

From what I have seen, access and availability to props and targets (movers, swingers, drop turners, steel) as well as range configuration, backstops area and reliable help during set-up/build break down are the biggest factors limiting course design far more that 9 round max from one location at the local club level.

As far as elaborate classifiers the same applies to them, most clubs just don't have access to the stuff and help necessary to set them up.

[sargenv]

I don't know about you. I'm shooting revolver division with a major caliber revolver (610) and I'm choosing to shoot minor because of the advantage that recovery time gives me. To say that you are at a disadvantage shooting minor is not all that realistic. If you make all your shots and shoot well, you can and will beat people shooting major. One match I went to last year, a few of our Reno compatriots made the hike over the hill and were actually going to shoot a steel match with their minor loads. The range that usually shot the steel match cancelled due to rain and they came to shoot IPSC. With their steel loaded minor guns, they still spanked everyone there. If you hit all alphas, you are at no disadvantage.

Now if you're going to hose, well sure you'll be at a disadvantage, but then I chalk that up to a lack of practice and being sloppy. How many top shooters can give up points and expect to win? Um... none. My advice is to find a soft shooting 9mm load, and practice like crazy, you CAN win shooting minor against shooters shooting major. If he scores all A's and finishes in 15, and you shoot all alphas and finish in 14.5, guess who wins?

Vince

[ihatepickles]

Now if you're going to hose, well sure you'll be at a disadvantage, but then I chalk that up to a lack of practice and being sloppy. How many top shooters can give up points and expect to win? Um... none. My advice is to find a soft shooting 9mm load, and practice like crazy, you CAN win shooting minor against shooters shooting major. If he scores all A's and finishes in 15, and you shoot all alphas and finish in 14.5, guess who wins?

This advice is fine for the A, B, C, D shooters in USPSA because each of those shooters drop a lot of points in various ways, but it's not true at the top. When you shoot your best alongside other shooters shooting their best, major scoring is a 25%-50% advantage. Anecdotes aside, this scenario (minor vs. major) has been played out over 30 years and major PF shooters will win over minor PF shooters.

Still not buying it? Look at the times and scores of uber-GM at nationals where Production and Limited shooters are on the same course of fire. The times are very similar, the scores are about 25% different.

Food for thought.

[George]

the scores are about 25% different

Somehow, I'm thinkin' a coupla' flat-footed reloads go a long ways towards making that difference up. I doubt points alone are the whole 25%, or even the large majority share of it. Having to reload in the middle of an array 2-3 time within a match and BAM, you are gonna' be 10-15% down compared to the rest of the GM's who ain't doing that. JMHO, but I will bet this is a little more correct than the points alone accounting for that diff.

[Jim Norman]

Make the comparison between L-10 and Production if you want to see the real difference between Major and Minor. THen you are playing the same game.

Jim

[George]

Make the comparison between L-10 and Production

A'Yup!

I am glad Jim noted that, I only addressed the unfair L to P direct comparison.

[ihatepickles]

Make the comparison between L-10 and Production if you want to see the real difference between Major and Minor. THen you are playing the same game.

Jim

Yep, my bad. That's exactly what my brain was thinking. My fingers got it wrong though.

[38superman]

Wow.

How did we get from "Better Course Design" and "B.S. Rules" all the way to Major vs. Minor.

This thread drifted so far it's Lost in Space.

"Danger Will Robinson"

Tls

[Harmon]

If the guys pecker was hangin out, it would have been touching the "unprotected muzzle" of a ghost holstered SVI.

I just dont like the idea of the gun pointing that way..YIKES!

Do we need more rules? no..we opened pandoras box with the single stack division (IMO) because now we have a division set up for one gun style in particular..and that leaves everyone else saying "what about XXXXX gun?"

we dont need any more rules or divisions...can single stack...keep L10...

THats my 2 cents

Harmon

[Jim Norman]

Actually it is not that far a leap.

Better Course Design is or can be affected by Rules that may or may not be BS. Comparing the advantages of one division shooting a given COF vs another may give a better idea as to what makes a good overall COF.

I always hear that Production shooters shoot a course differently thank the rest of us. I say not true. Production and L-10 shoot a very similar paln, true the Production shooters need to hit A's since they shoot minor, but the path through the COF is very similar.

(An aside here, This is one good reason to have L-10, Production, SS, & Revolver at one Nationals and Limited/Open at the other).

Rules that only allow a maximum number of rounds from one position are not as good as a rule that allows more but says you can't require more rounds from a position.

OK, Clarity, Position A, I see as I approach, 1 or 2 targets, I can engage thenm on the move as I approach, once in the position, I can see an additional 3 targets. one or more of which ia also available from another position. Good? Bad? It allows the Revo shooter to shoot the two he sees on approach, relaod and get the next three to start again, it allows the L-10 and Production shooters the option of takeing all 5 or any other combination prior to their needed reload and the Limited/Open Shooters can blast through and keep on going to the next array. Or as we ofetne set up, there are open targets spaced along the way that can be shot as you move or as a stand and shoot, then scoot.

The rule that said you could not shoot a stage in a manner that eliminated a position was one of those rules we can do without. If you are willing to take a 35 yard shot as opposed to running to a final position to shoot that same target why should we have a rule that says we can't? Doesn't a rule such as that violate "Freestyle"?

Jim

[ysued]

Vince, we must agree to disagree on this one!!

BTW, at the 2005 Area 3 I was thrown into Open due to the fact that I had a Glock Plug on my G17 Production Gun, this was my first major match in Production!!

Well in one or two stages, I placed very good with a Minor Production Gun in one stage I shot 71%. and at last years larry Bullock Match I was 4th Overall out of 49 Shooters, I was Beat by One Open, One Limited and One Limited 10 Shooter.

I have been shooting for 12 years now, I'm not a GM by no means, I don't practice, but taking the attitude that If I shoot Minor in a major/minor Division and I don't shoot all "A"'s I'm not good enough, is not fair to me or any other shooter, newbie or otherwise that has a 9mm Hi-Power and doesn't have a Equal playing field to play in. IF I want to go for A's, I do it, if I want to Hose, that is my choice, just like you choosing to shoot minor with a 610. But you have a choice to shoot Minor or major, don't you?? You made a choice, you had the choice, a shooter that has a 9mm Hi-Power, DOES NOT have a choice but shoot Minor!!

I don't know about you. I'm shooting revolver division with a major caliber revolver (610) and I'm choosing to shoot minor because of the advantage that recovery time gives me. To say that you are at a disadvantage shooting minor is not all that realistic. If you make all your shots and shoot well, you can and will beat people shooting major. One match I went to last year, a few of our Reno compatriots made the hike over the hill and were actually going to shoot a steel match with their minor loads. The range that usually shot the steel match cancelled due to rain and they came to shoot IPSC. With their steel loaded minor guns, they still spanked everyone there. If you hit all alphas, you are at no disadvantage.

Now if you're going to hose, well sure you'll be at a disadvantage, but then I chalk that up to a lack of practice and being sloppy. How many top shooters can give up points and expect to win? Um... none. My advice is to find a soft shooting 9mm load, and practice like crazy, you CAN win shooting minor against shooters shooting major. If he scores all A's and finishes in 15, and you shoot all alphas and finish in 14.5, guess who wins?

Vince

[Singlestack Wonder]

We invented Production to give the Glock/Sig/Beretta's a place to play to compete since they didn't with 1911's

Hiding under a rock lately? 2005 Limited 10 Champion-Glock, 2006 Limited Champion-Glock.

DA's can compete with SA's, it's the shooter..................

If the guys pecker was hangin out, it would have been touching the "unprotected muzzle" of a ghost holstered SVI.

Don't we need a little "Moderating" here as to not offend anyone.....................

[Bill Rosenthal]

I see I have successfully stirred the pot. I value all of your opinions and many of you pointed out why some things just have to be. Then again, we the shooters can and should keep the sport going in the right direction. This was also a type of informal poll. Back in the day it gave us a warm fuzzy feeling to do more with less, instead of having numerous divisions so more people can feel good by winning.

Respectively,

Bill Rosenthal