2007 Florida State Championship

[RAZZ]

I'll add just a few things I noticed that perhaps could have resulted from embedded ROs.

At one stage when our squad arrived to walk the stage, the previous squad was scoring their last shooter. As I was scouting the start position, I observed one of the other squad's members pasting about 8 holes in a hardcover wall lined up with the first or second target in the array. I watched the last two shooters, and neither one of them fired extra shots from the position. Innocent oversight?--Absolutely possible. But one crew of ROs that work a stage are well aware of likely "hardcover shoot-throughs" and look for it, and paste if necessary, after each shooter.

On stage 2, there was one of the "pull a rope attached to a handle to give you an easier drop out target" deals. The stage description mentioned nothing on where the handle was to be placed at the start--or even that you couldn't start with it in your hand. Since there wasn't one RO crew that had worked the stage from the start, no good answer could be found, as it was left up to each embedded RO to make up the positioning of the handle (which was what ours did). And there was no way to know which RO, and their respective squad, came up with which start position. Did it matter to me? Well, yes and no. I didn't pull the handle, but had I been given free reign to come up with some off the wall start (because the stage description made no mention of where the handle was supposed to be, and it was not "fixed" to anything), I might have been able to come up with a better way--and someone in another squad with a different RO may very well have done that.

That being said, it was a great match that I enjoyed thoroughly. I liked the "start anywhere you want" wide open stages, with a great mix of shooting challenges. Manny should be commended.

Edited April 2, 2007 by RAZZ

[Nemo]

I liked the "start anywhere you want" wide open stages, with a great mix of shooting challenges. Manny should be commended.

Agree 100%

******************

Now, WHY the embedded ROs?

Is it so the match didn't have to spend in RO's to be able to have cash payback? Although I rarely win anything, I'd rather have a trophy match if the cash payback will be at the expense of losing consistent match officiating. I'd like to hear what those who are usually in the money have to say about it.

Is it because Universal Shooting Academy range fees are too costly?

[dirtypool40]

Back to the match.

Congrats to "Sempai" PaulW, and a big BOUT FRIGGIN TIME. Did I mention this guy never EVER practices? How freakin' good is he? And on his ANNIVERSARY!!!

Congrats to Kevin, although, some would question changing guns the week before the match just to show off, jerk.

Marshall Todd, the quiet veteran with the single stack, good show!!

Smitty, woof, what a match that guy shot. We were squadded together, and I think I ran him every stage. He had one Mike, and one flubbed reload. Other than that it was smooth aggression and points all weekend. Great performance and a well deserved win.

As to my experience BEING an embedded RO. It gave the state match a very club level feeling, but no real problems within our squad. Everyone worked and I had as good a chance as anyone to shoot well.

That being said I did have an "issue" pop up just as the match ended, where an old friend bascially accused me of cheating to get a squibbed shooter a re-shoot. Kinda left me with a burnt hand feeling and doubting I will put my hand on the stove again. NAMES INTENTIONALLY WITHHELD.

[SmittyFL]

I don't know who you are talking about Eric but I had a couple folks ask me about it and I defended you saying basically you weren't smart enough to have orchestrated what happened on purpose.

How's that for a backhanded complement.

Don't sweat it dude, it happens. It was no body's fault, just one of those things.

Congrats to all the winners; the match was a lot of fun. I think the general consensus is the embedded ro's isn't the best idea. But hopefully that doesn't detract from the match too much. Manny, Wadette and the rest of the volunteers worked their tails off to put on a pretty good match for the shooters to enjoy. As one of those "in the money", it was nice to win an amount that is pretty significant although I agree I would rather have stationary RO's. But live and learn, it was still a good match in my opinion.

See ya'll next year.

Edited April 2, 2007 by SmittyFL

[BEDELLCUSTOM]

Eric, funny you mention Paul not practicing, John guida stopped by my shop the day before he flew down for the match because he wanted to borrow my chrono to check his loads so I said as a joke to him "do you even remember what end the bullet comes out of" and his reply was "I think so but I haven't picked this gun up since October".

[Sharyn]

What a GREAT match! I really enjoyed the stages! Challenging, multiple options and freestyle! Really big thanks to Manny, Wadette and all staff involved! GREAT JOB!!!

Thanks Nemo! I got her on a couple stages, but Eva Beecroft really deserves congratulations on High Lady.

SmittyFL, PaulW, Kevin Kline, cliffwalsh and ALL the talented winners deserve CONGRATS too!

Special THANKS to dirtypool40 for all his hard work. You did a great job with our squad... just stay off the stage when I'm the on-deck shooter... you might get hurt.

Here's what came of the video footage...

Edited April 2, 2007 by Sharyn

[stevie b]

Back to the match.

Congrats to "Sempai" PaulW, and a big BOUT FRIGGIN TIME. Did I mention this guy never EVER practices? How freakin' good is he? And on his ANNIVERSARY!!!

Congrats to Kevin, although, some would question changing guns the week before the match just to show off, jerk.

Marshall Todd, the quiet veteran with the single stack, good show!!

Smitty, woof, what a match that guy shot. We were squadded together, and I think I ran him every stage. He had one Mike, and one flubbed reload. Other than that it was smooth aggression and points all weekend. Great performance and a well deserved win.

As to my experience BEING an embedded RO. It gave the state match a very club level feeling, but no real problems within our squad. Everyone worked and I had as good a chance as anyone to shoot well.

That being said I did have an "issue" pop up just as the match ended, where an old friend bascially accused me of cheating to get a squibbed shooter a re-shoot. Kinda left me with a burnt hand feeling and doubting I will put my hand on the stove again. NAMES INTENTIONALLY WITHHELD.

eric,last year i was an embedded ro and things seemed to run quite well there too.

i'm aware of the incident in question although i did not attend the match.

i'm curious how a squib load shooter received a reshoot?

i know the time was left off or something like that,but this is important to the integrity of the sport.

[zhunter]

The "incident in question" when Eric was RO'ing would not have been a buddy helping a buddy get a re-shoot, if it was intentional, it would have been a conspiracy, as it would have had to involve the RO and the Score Keeper, as well as several squad members being in "ca-hoots" to pull something like that off. I think it was the result of the RO being tired, last stage of the 2 day match, i.e. RO'ing and shooting, combined with this not being a typical situation.

So the readers know, because you guys are curious F'ers

The shooter was on about the 5-7th shot of the stage and all of a sudden there was a poof rather than a BANG, the shooter immediately tried to clear the gun and rack a round, the RO yelled STOP!!!!

Gun was unloaded and cleared. Indeed there was a squib round in the barrel. Shooter was told to go to the safe area and clear the barrel and come back for a re-shoot. Shooter did just that.

Upon returning to the stage, shooter was informed that there would NOT be a re-shoot as the "bullet in the barrel" stoppage did not allow for a re-shoot. Shooter then went about pasting and re-setting the stage as normal. Sure, he was disappointed, but rules are rules.

Shooter then went to Bag Gun in Safe Area, and upon his return, was informed that his score sheet had not been scored, meaning the hits on the first few targets, the Mikes on the remaining targets, and the FTE Penalties that would have been "awarded"

Now, here is where we come to the issue. Several members of the squad got out a rule book and ascertained that there was NOW a re-shoot required as the score sheet has to be filled out, i.e. time, hits, misses, penalties etc... as well as being signed by both the RO and the Shooter.

I believe the MD was called, and shown the rule book and he issued the re-shoot. Keep in mind the the Section Coordinator and several other reputable shooters and Forum members were there and on this squad.

For Eric to have been, in my mind, abused and accused of cheating was not right. I feel that our squad was held to the highest standards during the two days of shooting. Nothing was given or asked for at any time.

And yes, I was the shooter that got the re-shoot. It made me uncomfortable, as I knew there was another shooter who was very unhappy with the result. The re-shoot in NO way changed the results or standings, so it should have been a moot point anyway. If I had zero'ed the stage, I still would have finished with enough match points to finish in the EXACT same position.

This incident, now explained, does not change my views on embedded RO's. Go back to the beginning of this thread, myself and others had objections when the announcement of embedded RO's was initially made. At a Major Match, I just don't feel it is in the best interest of the match to have embedded RO's. Hopefully this point has been learned and we will in the future had dedicated RO's.

That being said, it was a great match, fun stages that were fun and challenging.

I had fun and learned a lot.

Thanks to all the organizers again.

And for those of you stuck in cold climates, eat your hearts out, the weather was great and the crowd gathered and had FUN!!

Edited April 2, 2007 by zhunter

[Sharyn]

Eric, I'm sorry you were accused of cheating... that's just not the way it was.

If it puts anyone at ease, I was the volunteer, non-RO certified, scorekeeper. I didn't write down any time or hits on target... didn't know and didn't even look, I apologize. Personally, (but of no effect to the unwritten time/hits), I thought a squib was a reshoot... maybe too many local match interventions...???

There was no conspiracy, cheating or any other malicious act. Eric and I both made a mistake. It really is that simple.

How come I'm always in the middle of some drama... sheesh!

[baa]

How come I'm always in the middle of some drama... sheesh!

Your lucky that way? Now I guess we have to video you scoring as well, for later use during testimony!

As a member of the squad in question and the one who provided the squib rod, I agree that it was a matter of us being on our last stage, after a long day, with a RO who was also trying to shoot. We all made a mistake by not scoring Zhunter after the squib and this is in a squad with multiple certified ROs and other highly experienced shooters. It happens. It was not intentional.

[L9X25]

Our squad (the really good looking squad in Z's first picture ) followed Sharyn & Eric's squad all weekend. We got to see everything that went on and there was no intent to cheat. There was an honest mistake that could/would have been made with embeded RO's or not. I just believe that things sometimes look diffferent from "the peanut gallery" than when you are actually in and working a stage. Conspiracy theories run rampant when you only have half of the information.

Leo

[XRe]

Having talked a lot w/ Smitty, ZH, DP40, and Sharyn, I would doubt any "conspiracy" to get ZH a reshoot... just a simple error. Its a shame that people have to jump to the "cheating" thing - its this exact reason (not cheating, but the fact that it just leaves this avenue open in peoples' minds when something weird happens) that I don't like the idea of embedded ROs... Eric, I'm sorry you were accosted in that manner - I've been on the butt end of RO harassment like that, and it made me question whether I wanted to RO anything again, too....

Of course, maybe everyone learned a rule thing, here, that should be applied at all local matches, as well. If a shooter is stopped for a squib, and there's a bullet in the barrel, the stage is over - score it as shot. If no bullet in the barrel, reshoot. Even in local matches... This is better than it used to be - used to be it'd be a zero, regardless of how much of the stage was shot...

[stevie b]

i'm not sure what an f're is,but i'm guessing it's a bad thing.

as for as being the p-nut gallery well here i am.

just for the record i didn't call eric a cheat.

i'm sure it was an honest mistake.with one side of a story you cant expect anyone to be well informed.

and not being well informed it just wouldn't be right to have an opinion.

sorry i missed it.

i did hear the stages were great.

[L9X25]

-->

QUOTE(stevie b @ Apr 2 2007, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i'm not sure what an f're is,but i'm guessing it's a bad thing.

as for as being the p-nut gallery well here i am.

just for the record i didn't call eric a cheat.

i'm sure it was an honest mistake.with one side of a story you cant expect anyone to be well informed.

and not being well informed it just wouldn't be right to have an opinion.

sorry i missed it.

i did hear the stages were great.

Stevie,

My comment was not aimed at you at all. It was aimed at the folks that were close enough to realize that Z got a re-shoot, after having a squib, but were not close enough to know what happened that caused the re-shoot.

It's not the first time that folks in the cheap seats question what the RO on the spot called, and it won't be the last. It was a great match and I am sorry that you missed it.

Leo

[CDW]

SHARYN you were never accused of a conspiracy or anyone else. The problem is that Eric is a Master shooter just tenths away from Grand Master and Sam Conyers is a Grand Master and was standing 6' away. As soon as the sqib was confirmed Eric yelled paste em up. Has everyone in this forum lost what is really the issue. No matter what stage it was early or late tired or fresh. You had 2 supposedly shooters that are high up in the sport. Are we to believe they do not know the rules. Anyone who knows a master or grand master knows they get the edge by gaming, perfectly legal process but both of these shooters know what was required at the moment it happened. Yes I wish the match had supplied RO's and pasters also, hopefully the things I'm reading could have been avoided. But don't confuse the issue the shooters who lost to this guy and every shooter at that match should be appalled at what happened. A Grand Master and a Master shooter that doesn't know what the procedures are upon a squib load. And it happens to be the RO's buddy. Does this look bad or what. If you revert back a couple of threads you will read where the shooter was instructed to clear it and come back for a reshoot. That would have been a perfect time to say no reshoot allowed Score and time is noted. I along with 2 dozen people saw the whole thing from 20'. And for you who want to make excuses for what happened No he did not beat me so I'm not a disgruntled shooter. Just one that believes what I saw and thinks it's bad for our sport. Also I saw the shooter go to Roy Tyler and ask could he reshoot it he was told NO. Later very later you have a Grand Master approach Roy and show him the rule where it states you have to have a score and a time so he must reshoot it. This is not a pick on Eric it's about how we look up to the shooters who hold a Master and Grand Master and rely on them for guidance. We don't ask them to know every rule but this rule was up there as priority.

[PaulW]

Z did you have any squibs during the re-shoot? Ah Ha! Conspiracy it must have been then. Because we all know the old trick of starting with a mag with a squib or two just in case we don't like how things are going during a stage! (sounds good anyways....LOL)

I totally believe that knowing most of the shooters on that squad, and knowing Eric more than I want to (haha), that this was simply a mistake. Cheating just would not work around them. You guys ever notice how Shannon looks when he's shooting? Hell the way he looks all the time really. He looks like he could rip your friggin head off and make you say "thanks for the make-over". Try cheating around him and find out what happens. Thats why I have never been able to bring myself to tell him that he has a girls name. (Joking please don't kill me) LOL

Ok and Dan Bedell, is there anything else you can say to jab me a little more? Geesh, being beat by 17 points from a New Yorker is plenty bad enough! Naa, John had a great match and if that was rusty watch out....plus his back was killing him. Or did that happen when he went and saw Dan, hmmm, information I don't need to know!

[Sandro]

SHARYN you were never accused of a conspiracy or anyone else. The problem is that Eric is a Master shooter just tenths away from Grand Master and Sam Conyers is a Grand Master and was standing 6' away. As soon as the sqib was confirmed Eric yelled paste em up. Has everyone in this forum lost what is really the issue. No matter what stage it was early or late tired or fresh. You had 2 supposedly shooters that are high up in the sport. Are we to believe they do not know the rules. Anyone who knows a master or grand master knows they get the edge by gaming, perfectly legal process but both of these shooters know what was required at the moment it happened. Yes I wish the match had supplied RO's and pasters also, hopefully the things I'm reading could have been avoided. But don't confuse the issue the shooters who lost to this guy and every shooter at that match should be appalled at what happened. A Grand Master and a Master shooter that doesn't know what the procedures are upon a squib load. And it happens to be the RO's buddy. Does this look bad or what. If you revert back a couple of threads you will read where the shooter was instructed to clear it and come back for a reshoot. That would have been a perfect time to say no reshoot allowed Score and time is noted. I along with 2 dozen people saw the whole thing from 20'. And for you who want to make excuses for what happened No he did not beat me so I'm not a disgruntled shooter. Just one that believes what I saw and thinks it's bad for our sport. Also I saw the shooter go to Roy Tyler and ask could he reshoot it he was told NO. Later very later you have a Grand Master approach Roy and show him the rule where it states you have to have a score and a time so he must reshoot it. This is not a pick on Eric it's about how we look up to the shooters who hold a Master and Grand Master and rely on them for guidance. We don't ask them to know every rule but this rule was up there as priority.

CDW, why don't you tell Eric face to face next time you see him how you feel? Please also sign your post with your real name.

Sandro

[zhunter]

SHARYN you were never accused of a conspiracy or anyone else. The problem is that Eric is a Master shooter just tenths away from Grand Master and Sam Conyers is a Grand Master and was standing 6' away. As soon as the sqib was confirmed Eric yelled paste em up. Has everyone in this forum lost what is really the issue. No matter what stage it was early or late tired or fresh. You had 2 supposedly shooters that are high up in the sport. Are we to believe they do not know the rules. Anyone who knows a master or grand master knows they get the edge by gaming, perfectly legal process but both of these shooters know what was required at the moment it happened. Yes I wish the match had supplied RO's and pasters also, hopefully the things I'm reading could have been avoided. But don't confuse the issue the shooters who lost to this guy and every shooter at that match should be appalled at what happened. A Grand Master and a Master shooter that doesn't know what the procedures are upon a squib load. And it happens to be the RO's buddy. Does this look bad or what. If you revert back a couple of threads you will read where the shooter was instructed to clear it and come back for a reshoot. That would have been a perfect time to say no reshoot allowed Score and time is noted. I along with 2 dozen people saw the whole thing from 20'. And for you who want to make excuses for what happened No he did not beat me so I'm not a disgruntled shooter. Just one that believes what I saw and thinks it's bad for our sport. Also I saw the shooter go to Roy Tyler and ask could he reshoot it he was told NO. Later very later you have a Grand Master approach Roy and show him the rule where it states you have to have a score and a time so he must reshoot it. This is not a pick on Eric it's about how we look up to the shooters who hold a Master and Grand Master and rely on them for guidance. We don't ask them to know every rule but this rule was up there as priority.

David

I was bothered by your reaction, both to the event and the treatment of Eric. Too bad really. I was more than ready to take the zero'd stage when that was the case, you and I even had a conversation about it, and then felt lucky to get a re-shoot when the rules allowed. But for my integrity to be called into question bothers me!! You see, after having played golf competitively for 30 years, 15 years professionally, I was NEVER questioned about any thing, called plenty of penalties on myself over the years. So, yeah, your reaction is bothersome.

When I talked to the MD, Roy, I was told the rule and that was that. But, when the subsequent rule allowed for a no-shoot, that was great too. Both were within the USPSA Rules, maybe you should read both the rules that don't allow re-shoots and the one that do!!

BTW, David, nice shooting and congrats on finishing 2nd.

Edited April 2, 2007 by zhunter

[Fireant]

Any bets on how long before this gets closed????

[boo radley]

I glanced at a couple of Z's videos in another thread -- that one stages (Dentist theme) looked identical to what I remember from the Florida Open.

Were some of the same stages shot again?

[CDW]

Sandro, Sorry I didn't leave my name it's David by the way I did speak to Eric and Sam face to face. I've been friends with Eric for 6 or 7 years. This is not a Lets beat up on Eric. It's about a situation that happened. There were several issues at the match that affected the outcome of the finish.

Thanks for the congrats Zhunter, it's a shame you were the one involved you know how long Eric and I have been friends and yes I know the rule book to bad the one running you didn't. If he had you would have been instructed why you could not have a reshoot and the time would have been written down. If you remember as you walked by I asked you did you know why you could not have a reshoot and you and I discussed it. The problem is that each stage didn't have Ro that only ro'ed that stage. My point has been made and frienships have been lost and some shooters will never shoot this sport again. Hopefully it will have an impact on future matches. David

[zhunter]

I glanced at a couple of Z's videos in another thread -- that one stages (Dentist theme) looked identical to what I remember from the Florida Open.

Were some of the same stages shot again?

Boo

Most the the FL Open props were used, but the targets were placed in different configurations. It was a great match and very challenging. Much different from the Open for shooting purposes.

[XRe]

Any bets on how long before this gets closed????

I think its coming quickly... That tends to happen when people start calling other people names....

[zhunter]

Any bets on how long before this gets closed????

I think its coming quickly... That tends to happen when people start calling other people names....

I just tried to get it BACK on TRACK

[Radical Precision Designs]

Just to change the wind direction a little bit.

I believe that it was mentioned before, but I didn't have the time to back-track. The question is: Was this match indeed qualified/classified as an actual "major match", and as such move the Class winners to the next/higher class???? You see, a good friend and customer just asked me about it. He was a participant at this match, and for a while now has had an inkling for a particular shooter that for quite a while now has been winning everything in his class, but doing poorly on classifiers " and happens to have won his class in this match. He wants to know if this shooter will finally be bumped to the next higher class so that he can have a chance next time???? I know it sounds like sour grapes, but actually these two shooters are friends ( in a weird sort of way!!)