Latest Bod Minutes

[Ara]

Gees guys, in regards to trigger weight I was replying to Carlos's and BBunin's questions and comments. I was merely trying to explain probably where the 3# came from.

But IMA45DV8 you are wrong on two counts. I'm not a "martial artist" and USPSA/IPSC is PART of my training but not a substitute. I, like many others, DON'T consider this "just a game", regardless of whether we use a timer or not. Killing humanoid targets is not a game. I do feel that USPSA should come farther to the right, however. I don't shoot IDPA nor want to and I'm all for mods. I just really want more people to compete against, like we used to. I don't want to go to a nationals and compete against only a hundred or so shooters. (or even less). And I'd like to go to a club match with 50 or more people and shoot against more than 10. Its just odd, the longer I stay in the sport, the less I shoot against.

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

[steel1212]

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

WWB

about 136 power factor....so were both wrong

Oh and the last time I checked the standard issued USPSA targets didn't breath, move, or shoot back so I don't think I'm killing anything. Hell the IPSC targets don't look like anything even remotely alive.

For me it would just tick me a little that I spent money to have my XD worked and then find out that because of a rule change its not legal and have to spend more money on it, in the end you know what shit happens and we move on and I'll get over it.

Edited November 28, 2006 by steel1212

[GeorgeInNePa]

Gees guys, in regards to trigger weight I was replying to Carlos's and BBunin's questions and comments. I was merely trying to explain probably where the 3# came from.

But IMA45DV8 you are wrong on two counts. I'm not a "martial artist" and USPSA/IPSC is PART of my training but not a substitute. I, like many others, DON'T consider this "just a game", regardless of whether we use a timer or not. Killing humanoid targets is not a game. I do feel that USPSA should come farther to the right, however. I don't shoot IDPA nor want to and I'm all for mods. I just really want more people to compete against, like we used to. I don't want to go to a nationals and compete against only a hundred or so shooters. (or even less). And I'd like to go to a club match with 50 or more people and shoot against more than 10. Its just odd, the longer I stay in the sport, the less I shoot against.

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

American Eagle 9mm 115gr = 143pf from my factory barreled G34

CCI Blazer 9mm 115gr = 134pf from my factory barreled G34

[big_kahuna]

Gees guys, in regards to trigger weight I was replying to Carlos's and BBunin's questions and comments. I was merely trying to explain probably where the 3# came from.

But IMA45DV8 you are wrong on two counts. I'm not a "martial artist" and USPSA/IPSC is PART of my training but not a substitute. I, like many others, DON'T consider this "just a game", regardless of whether we use a timer or not. Killing humanoid targets is not a game. I do feel that USPSA should come farther to the right, however. I don't shoot IDPA nor want to and I'm all for mods. I just really want more people to compete against, like we used to. I don't want to go to a nationals and compete against only a hundred or so shooters. (or even less). And I'd like to go to a club match with 50 or more people and shoot against more than 10. Its just odd, the longer I stay in the sport, the less I shoot against.

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

Ara,

No flaming from me. Just voicing my opinion, just like you. It's all good. Dialogue and discussion are appropriate at this stage of the game. We can agree to disagree and still be cool.

[Chuck Anderson]

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

Dude, that's not even close to accurate. Maybe most factory 147's make that but the majority of 124's and 115's are anywhere from 128 to 138. I tested around 20 loads out of 3 Glock 17's for that figure. Yeah the 147's were hot but nothing else.

"6. Allow almost any mod as long as you don't add or subtract 2 oz. This was also proposed to the board in October. "

Is this per modification or as a total to the gun? If it's per modification there's no way to enforce it because there could be multiple modifications that change the gun by a pound. If it's over all, cool, I'm gonna mill the slide on my Glock to produce a lighter recooiling mass and then hang a weight off my frame rail so that I have some recoil damping. Sorry, but this is the least "Production" idea that I've ever heard.

As far as the trigger pull weight. I doub that it had much to do with what police agencies thought would be a good carry weight. I think it had more to do with picking a weight that they didn't think a factory gun ( not a race tuned one) would come in lower than.

With all due respect to you and Ron (who I can't imagine would be your unnamed "friend") Not everyone wants to shoot your version of USPSA. While I personally like harder matches, (including the evil Texas Stars), there are times I just like putting my brain in park and shooting a hoser match. So here's the problem. For those guys that think there should be a 3 pound limit in Production because it is more carry related. Or think that we should use carry related gear. Or heck, if you want to shoot from a concealed carry position and use cover. Do it. There's nothing that says you can't. But this incessant need to enforce our will and personal ideas on others do more to damage the sport than allowing a 2 lb trigger.

[driver8M3]

chuck,

i think ara's 2 oz recommendation was for a heads-up division, not for the production division that we now have.

in some ways i agree with ara. the main difference between production and limited isn't the guns (i think daves limited win goes a long way in proving this), it's the rules (10 round limit and minor scoring). of course, the perception that it's the gun will probably always be there, especially for new shooters.

[ima45dv8]

Gees guys, in regards to trigger weight I was replying to Carlos's and BBunin's questions and comments. I was merely trying to explain probably where the 3# came from.

But IMA45DV8 you are wrong on two counts. I'm not a "martial artist" and USPSA/IPSC is PART of my training but not a substitute. I, like many others, DON'T consider this "just a game", regardless of whether we use a timer or not. Killing humanoid targets is not a game. I do feel that USPSA should come farther to the right, however. I don't shoot IDPA nor want to and I'm all for mods. I just really want more people to compete against, like we used to. I don't want to go to a nationals and compete against only a hundred or so shooters. (or even less). And I'd like to go to a club match with 50 or more people and shoot against more than 10. Its just odd, the longer I stay in the sport, the less I shoot against.

For the record, WWB and just about all other factory nines, regardless of bullet weight is about 147-149 PF. I suppose I'll get flamed for that too.

Well, I've been wrong before. Conveying certain ideas through a keyboard is isn't always easy. Your reference to trainers and agency requirements prompted my comments, simply because I wouldn't want to see that frame of reference drive the trigger pull weight decision. I vote to let the provisions of 10.4 help people decide for themselves what weight trigger they bring to a match.

When I said you 'seem' to fall squarely into the Martial Artist camp, I meant that it appears you recognize a practical aspect in our sport, as relates to seriously degraded social situations.

That said, I do believe training is available at USPSA matches, with respect to the required skills of safe, fast and accurate gunhandling. I personally don't look to strengthen tactical skills during the match experience, but focus more on the mechanics mentioned. I have long believed that IPSC/USPSA shooters are, on the whole, the safest high-speed gunhandlers in the world. I've seen very few folks who don't shoot these (or IDPA-type) competitions who combined 'fast' and 'safe' as well as those who do. I'm sure there are exceptions, though. For me, the gunhandling learned at USPSA matches is training, for that particular skillset, and the best available.

Sorry if it seemed I was trying to words in your mouth.

[ysued]

about 136 power factor....so were both wrong

I took my M&P9 Chronoe'd at 133 with WWB at the Limited Nationals in Barry this year (I shot a few stages with the RO's for fun and Chronoman ran my gun as a courtesy.

Y

[Chuck Anderson]

chuck,

i think ara's 2 oz recommendation was for a heads-up division, not for the production division that we now have.

in some ways i agree with ara. the main difference between production and limited isn't the guns (i think daves limited win goes a long way in proving this), it's the rules (10 round limit and minor scoring). of course, the perception that it's the gun will probably always be there, especially for new shooters.

Okay, then it really doesn't make any sense for a heads up Division. How would you possibly enforce it with an STI/SV pattern gun which is made from the frame alone frequently. I've got a EGW lightened slide bushing .40. It's more than 2 oz lighter than a factory Edge. But that is the way it was made. What would the factory weight of a limited gun actually be?

[ysued]

Likewise, the idea that an arbitrary benchmark of a 3 lb. trigger pull is going to prevent an arms race in Production sounds like people crying they got beat by a gun instead of a better shooter.

In my case, the only reason the trigger pull rule bothers me is Enforcement!!

Like it's been mentioned here before, if you take one gun, one Trigger Pull Gauge and give it to 10 different shooters, you will get 10 different Trigger Pull Weights!!

Is every Local MD going to Enforce this rule?? Personally, I don't have the time or the staff to do so, it's just me and a buddy running the matches. Will I be forced to buy the Official USPSA Trigger Pull gauge in order to run Production??

OTOH, why not leave the darn Triggers alone?? Buy a gun, Put BB's in it and go shoot!!

Don't get me wrong, both my M&P's will have a nice Trigger Job done to them, but they will be over 3 lbs, I don't want to AD onto any vital part of my anatomy!!

Y

[driver8M3]

Okay, then it really doesn't make any sense for a heads up Division. How would you possibly enforce it with an STI/SV pattern gun which is made from the frame alone frequently.

yeah, that's true. maybe that's not what he meant...i'll stop speaking for others now.

[ima45dv8]

......I don't want to AD onto any vital part of my anatomy!!

Y

They're all vital parts!

++++++++++++++++++++

[slight drift]

I saw a shit home-made trigger job at a match this weekend. The shooter had 2 failures, one a casehead separation and one the most deformed, flattened piece of brass stuck in the chamber that I've seen. Both had to be removed with a squib rod. The brass flowed back so badly on the second one that the extractor groove was non-existant. The extractor had nothing to grab on to.

His Para's disconnector was filed so flat that you could pull the slide back to where the barrel started to rotate down, and you could still fire the gun! I doubt a minimum trigger pull weight would have prevented it.

[/slight drift]

[ysued]

[slight drift]

I saw a shit home-made trigger job at a match this weekend. The shooter had 2 failures, one a casehead separation and one the most deformed, flattened piece of brass stuck in the chamber that I've seen. Both had to be removed with a squib rod. The brass flowed back so badly on the second one that the extractor groove was non-existant. The extractor had nothing to grab on to.

His Para's disconnector was filed so flat that you could pull the slide back to where the barrel started to rotate down, and you could still fire the gun! I doubt a minimum trigger pull weight would have prevented it.

[/slight drift]

Dude, that is worse than a bad trigger Job, I see:

Crappy gusnmithing in general

God-Awful reloading

This shooter is a danger to himself and others, I wouldn't want to RO him, when that Grenade he's shooting with goes off, I don't want to get hir with Shrapnel!!

Y

[itento]

Is every Local MD going to Enforce this rule?? Personally, I don't have the time or the staff to do so, it's just me and a buddy running the matches. Will I be forced to buy the Official USPSA Trigger Pull gauge in order to run Production??

I won't! We don't pull out the ruler and line everyone up to check max distance of handgun and speedloaders from torso (although if someone had their gun hanging out at a 45 degree angle I would question that); we don't chrono loads (although if someone is claiming major and is shooting a powder puff load I would question, as would everyone else, what they were shooting); we don't pull guns apart to check for modifications (I feel this is an integrety issue with the shooter). Bottom line is at the local level, we don't have the staff or time to check that every shooter is complying with all the rules in each division. We have to rely on common sense and honesty. If someone feels they need to break the rules then it is their conscience they have to deal with.

[Ara]

Ok, maybe things are different up here at 6000 ft but my match loads are right on when tested elsewhere. FWIW, I use factory G34's and all brands and weights of ammo and still get higher PF's for some reason.

Back to topic. My comments and ideas are just that. My focus is not so much the specific rules as much as "what can we do to make the sport better". Spreading everyone out, to me, is not better. I agree that we can and maybe should do everything we can to allow members to compete with what they got but I don't think we should have a division for everything. As I said in my first post this is a pipe dream suggestion and there is no "my version" that I want everyone to shoot.

Lawman, I again say I'm not a martial artist and I don't want "harder" matches. What is a "harder" match anyway? I still shoot IPSC and as much as I get frustrated sometimes, I still shoot it. I haven't quit yet. I don't want or believe we should conceal everything like IDPA either.

So I stick to my focus. That we have spread ourselves out too thin with divisions and would like to see more of us shooting together. I, for one, am willing to sacrifice and compromise to include my high cap mags and trigger weight.

I clearly understand there are some issues with "enforcement" of some rules but most of the restrictions are already not checked. Did anyone have their Glock checked at nationals for that Vanek trigger? Mine wasn't. Did anyone swap ammo after knowing they chrono first stage? Were there shooters who borrowed ammo? Who knows. When you get down to it, not much is enforced, especially in Production. Let alone at club level matches.

As a member, I would like to see the board focus a little more on ways of taking care of its members, ie., no matter how you slice it, I used to compete against alot more shooters and now I don't.

[ipscbob]

Ok, maybe things are different up here at 6000 ft but my match loads are right on when tested elsewhere. FWIW, I use factory G34's and all brands and weights of ammo and still get higher PF's for some reason.

Back to topic. My comments and ideas are just that. My focus is not so much the specific rules as much as "what can we do to make the sport better". Spreading everyone out, to me, is not better. I agree that we can and maybe should do everything we can to allow members to compete with what they got but I don't think we should have a division for everything. As I said in my first post this is a pipe dream suggestion and there is no "my version" that I want everyone to shoot.

Sounds like a great concept but what if one flavor/division doesnt fit all? "Heads up" is often talked about around here but rarely is it looked at realistically. Fact is I suspect that what you really want is everyone shooting similiar setups. This would be bad for the sport since we are all individuals that all have different expectations and motivations. I do not agree with the contention that 5 divisions is too much. But I do agree that it is a matter of quality over quantity.

As a member, I would like to see the board focus a little more on ways of taking care of its members, ie., no matter how you slice it, I used to compete against alot more shooters and now I don't.

HHMM.....Our locals are alive and well with lots of new blood and competition. This suggests that your choices put you out of the mainstream and that you might be better served in a different sport.

[Nemo]

...I have no problem with you (or anyone else) having a trigger that goes under 3 lbs. The rules regarding AD's will sort out any problems.

Amen, Brother DV8!

Why do we have to change anything? Is something really broken?

Too many divisions = Dilution of competition: I call BS! I'd say it equals more places where to play.

We have to keep L10. It's been here for too long, it fits states where hicaps are not allowed and it is the preferred division of many. Where's the brain surgery in this? Don't mess with it.

Who was it that came up with a production div min trigger pull? I'm sure it wasn't the guy who's gonna sit and measure them all at the 2008 production nationals. I can already see it happenning... (questions at the trigger pull measuring station: 2008 nationals)

- How many have you measured so far, sir?

- You haven't dropped that, right?

- I would like to have it calibrated, please.

- Do you have another one to compare the measurement with? We use two chronos, you know?

Production rules needed clarification, not new rules.

The only provisional division is Single Stack, and although I like it, I'm caught between a rock.... because it's the only division that's there only for one type of pistol. Maybe, and since it is not an officially established division, it is the ONLY one that needs to be made into a category. But, if after the provisional period we decide to keep it as a division it's all good too.

The USPSA tool of choice lately has been the on-line surveys. Ask us what we want.

[jkushner1]

As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it. I think the XD, not the Glock is the impetus here - I felt an XD that was just a little longer but lighter than some of my limited gun that have been worked, just over 2 lbs - keep the playing field level.

TY

JK

[Nemo]

As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it.

TY

JK

What do you shoot JK? CZ? Your first shot is 6.5#. What about subsequent shots? Pure curiosity, I have no clue. If you have a first shot of 6.5# and the other 9 at 1.5#, it may not be much of a disadvantage.

[steel1212]

As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it. I think the XD, not the Glock is the impetus here - I felt an XD that was just a little longer but lighter than some of my limited gun that have been worked, just over 2 lbs - keep the playing field level.

TY

JK

If you have a 6.5# first shot how is that going to be fair for everybody else to have a 3# trigger pull? They will still have a better pull than you on the first shot? I'm not up on my glock triggers but can't they be made to have a 2# trigger as well? And yes I shoot an XD

[Flexmoney]

My focus is not so much the specific rules as much as "what can we do to make the sport better". Spreading everyone out, to me, is not better. I agree that we can and maybe should do everything we can to allow members to compete with what they got but I don't think we should have a division for everything.

Ara,

I fear that you'd be pushing away the very thing you seek.

[blackdragon]

Lets beat the dead horse!!!???

Ivan

[Merlin Orr]

Lets beat the dead horse!!!???

Ivan

Ivan.....This belongs on page 2......

[EricW]

Horse...? I thought it was beat up on Ara time. Now where'd I leave my wiffle bat...?

(just kidding Ara)

[EricBudd]

As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it.

TY

JK

What do you shoot JK? CZ? Your first shot is 6.5#. What about subsequent shots? Pure curiosity, I have no clue. If you have a first shot of 6.5# and the other 9 at 1.5#, it may not be much of a disadvantage.

The problem (if it is a problem) is that shooters are making major modifications to their striker fired pistols so that they are, in effect, single action triggers with a sub 2 lb pulls. There are/were common modifications that change the geometry of the trigger in the name of 'enhanced reliability'. We all know that the changes were about getting a better/lighter trigger pull to gain a competitive advantage.

I don't care so much about where we draw the line, but at some point a production gun ceases to be a production gun. If you want to make major modes and shoot a Glock with a 1 1/2 pound trigger, that is fine; it just might not be production.

Of course, I think that allowing the XD as a production gun was a mistake - it is as much double action as a CZ SA.

I know that we race and mod our guns to ge a competie advantage. But maybe, just maybe, Production isn't the place for that.