Poll Divisions To Keep

[big_kahuna]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

A - My home of record is in California and I will be returning there once I'm done playing Army, and have lived and will continue to live as long as both I and the fiance want to. However, we'll move when either of us doesn't want to deal with the state any longer (AZ again!)

B - While I personally would disolve L-10 as a seperate division, it can still awarded as a seperate tag category. So again, you can still have 10 round pistols and 10-round mags and race gear, you will just compete for overall Limited for a class win, but there will also be a seperate notification for L-10. Like we do for Senior, Super Senior, Lady (and used to do for Military but no uproar over that).

C - As for believing that you have to do invest in full race rigs, that's why there's Production. So, you can bring out your Glock, Beretta, SIG, CZ, et. al. And sorry, if a magwell is going to be the difference between you shooting and not shooting ('cause you can still change what's important...sights, trigger and barrel) then don't play 'cause you don't get it anyways. It's not about having the same equipment as the next guy. It's about improving yourself as a shooter and just so happens that you stomp the hell out of the next guy.

The divisions above are more than adequate. We do not need, nor does the BOD want, a division for every single variation of every pistol out there. It's ridiculous and unrealistic.

Just my $0.02. Of course, I'm also for changing our matches to like IPSC...no classes, but that would never get passed.

Rich

Rich,

Of course, you are making sense and I don't disagree with your logic. We can both agree, however, that human beings are not all logical.... they operate on perception, and often on misinformatione and fear. Therein lies my concern... how new shooters or potential recruits (with their emotional and illogical decision matrices) might see the move to the eliminate Limited-10 here in my hometown, and in other towns in capacity-restricted areas. In Item B above, I understand your position and would try to communicate it to others... but illogical humans often react in knee-jerk fashion to such controversy, and I see this as a needless risk. We have the division already, why not stabilize it and avoid the fallout? For me personally, I can shoot limited if I have to, or live with L-10 as a division... but many newbies and my prospective recruits may be scared off by this issue.

I see keeping L-10 as a mainstream division to be reinforcing stability, and one less obstacle to my recruitment efforts... I know I am an idealist, but I would really love to see more and more "regular folks" get exposed to USPSA and get involved in it.

Regarding Item C above, again I agree as it pertains to my personal situation... I personally can and will shoot anything I can that has reliability, decent sights and a decent trigger. I plan on trying Production as soon as my financial situation allows. However, my concern again lies with the perceptions of newbies and potential recruits. If they are convinced (even incorrectly) that they "need" a magwell, why not give them a venue to run such equipment? L-10 provides a reasonable, attainable, CAMANYHINJ-legal venue for newbies to run their magwells and basepads. It is a low-cost option with higher upside potential than downside risk.

I also agree that the BOD doesn't need a division for every variant of gun out there. I personally think the current offerings of divisions (including L-10) is sufficient. At this point we can agree to disagree, for I understand your desire to make L-10 a separate tag category. Were this to happen, I would adapt and keep shooting. I am prepared to follow whichever path the BOD selects. I hope that I can well represent their decisions to my fellow newcomers and future recruits.

Thanks for your time and letting me get this off my chest. I am not firmly established in USPSA yet, have no fancy titles or accomplishments, and am a relative newcomer even to BE forums... and I get the nauseating feeling that I am in over my head on this debate. Nevertheless, I and my fellow Marines built our reputation more on hard-headed tenacity and core values than raw intellectual power. I hope that I have given this issue, and my perspective on it, the logic and eloquence it deserves. Safe journey to us both.

Kindest Regards,

big_kahuna aka Caesar Santiago

[GeorgeInNePa]

well, it was a horde of two that left USPSA locally in the 90's...

anyway, here's another totally separate idea I've been kicking around..

Two divisions:

1 - Pistols that fit in the box. ("Practical" guns)

2 - Pistols that don't fit in the box. ("Game" guns)

With 3 subdivisions each: anything-goes, a no-scopes, no-comps, and a DA-1st shot subdivision for each.

That sounds interesting.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

-snip

C - As for believing that you have to do invest in full race rigs, that's why there's Production. So, you can bring out your Glock, Beretta, SIG, CZ, et. al. And sorry, if a magwell is going to be the difference between you shooting and not shooting ('cause you can still change what's important...sights, trigger and barrel) then don't play 'cause you don't get it anyways. It's not about having the same equipment as the next guy. It's about improving yourself as a shooter and just so happens that you stomp the hell out of the next guy.

-snip

.

Rich

+1

I shot a Ruger P90 for my first 9 months in USPSA shooting. That was 1992, you know, back when there was only ONE division.

I did manage to win High Stock Gun, a category, at Topton, at the end of '92. That is one of the few trophies that I won that means anything to me.

[uscbigdawg]

In 1995 when I started, I shot a Taurus PT100 with fixed sights. Nylon holster and nylon mag pouches (all the cheap $5-10 kind that you buy in the bins at gun stores). I shot and practiced and practiced and along came IPSC.

Shot some matches down at SWPL and Norco with the likes Jojo, Jethro, Mike Voigt, Mike Setting, Beven Grams, Darren Davenport et. al. I hung at the local IPSC shop YZF and every Friday it was barbecue and talking shooting with the guys in OC. Moved back to northern California (1996) where the sickness started. Bought a beat to hell Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec. Scored a Safariland 007 holster and mag pouches and belt in a bargain bin at a store in southern California before I left. Belt was too small, but saved my pennies to get a high-speed Safariland over belt system. Went to my first match with my 1911 and 10-round mags in hand.

That gun jammed, hammer followed and I was running times in the minutes. Met up with a local gunsmith who took me under his wing and it was 2 months later when I again saved some pennies to have a pretty sweet 1911. In the meantime, I shot and practiced with trusty Taurus (and back to the nylon gear). Had to shoot a man-on-man steel against Russ Wakida with Gene Shuey RO'ing me since I finished in the Top 16 at Richmond. Needless to say against him and his full house Limcat Open gun, I was done.

Got my 1911 and the sickness had taken root. Went to matches all over northern California. Had a practice regimine in place, Dad and I were reloading ('cause I had very little experience reloading) all my ammo on a Rock Chucker and then I decided to shoot my first major match. 1998 Area 1. Out of the 10 stages, I was "on the first page" on 8 of them. Not bad for a D Class shooter. Of course the other 2 I crashed, burned and the neighbors dog was beatin' the hell out of me. Finished 2nd in my class by 30 points. That's when I realized I could actually place this game a little. Took the parts I won off of there, little bits here and there from members and at a regional won a Entreprise Arms hi-cap frame.

Sent it and my box of parts to the gunsmith that built the SA and now had my first hi-cap. I was running Grams pads, a Safariland 011, same pouches, and thought I rocked! I loved that gun. Thank goodness a local guy still has it and may have to buy it back. Did pretty well at a Golden Gate Championships and decided to pick up a Competition Gun Works STI (Dan Ruff is awesome!) that Henning Wallgren won. Henning made me a sweet deal and it was on!

Shot that pistol for a couple of months and really never should have sold that one. It was the perfect Limited gun...for me. But did. Sold it to buy my first Open Gun. Had won a couple of medium level matches and sent a STI frame to Rusty Kidd after taking my first class with Matt Burkett and having shot his 6" Viper and talking with him at that Area 1. While that was getting built though, I clammered to find a similar gun and thanks to Pat Cochran of AFTEC, sold me Spanky and a great friendship started. I had Spanky for a couple of years and won a lot matches with him. In no short order was Matt a huge help in this since I literally called one day asking if he could squeeze me in on a weekend private class to teach me how to shoot an Open gun. After that weekend, I brought the pain at the Area 6 and Silver Buckle. Not so much at the Area 4, and got screwed at the West Coast that year, but still had fun. Had the first generation Ghost Holster (didn't even have the lil' ghost on the side and I still run it) and 771's and was smokin'!

Today I have the same Open gun that Rusty built me, but haven't shot near as much as I want to. Uncle Sam has a way of gobbling up all of our free time. But 23 months to go for that (and then...IT'LL BE ON!).

The point is that if someone is going to be intimidated based upon perception or misinformation, them quitting is not a matter of how warm and fuzzy we make them. For that mentality it's going to be as soon as they get a reason (see excuse). During the time table of my shooting, I've been a broke college student, new college graduate, fresh out of college employee living at home, new home owner, new home & car buyer, relocated professional (moved to AZ for the shooting), relocated professional again (moved to KC for work), relocated professional & home owner & new car buyer (at the same time moving back to CA) and started two businesses before dumping all of it to join the Army.

So there's excuses everywhere in there, but the point is that because I want to shoot, I don't total up receipts for powder, primers and bullets. I don't add up how many tens of thousands of dollars I've bought in guns (especially shooting 3-Gun since 1998). I save what I can, shoot when I can, and sometimes at the detrement of other things. Like most IPSC shooters, especially on these boards, it's a lifestyle/obsession. Because the big picture is that it's a little bubble that we can control how close we can come to perfection. Very, very rare these days that we can find anything like that. It's almost spiritual.

Putting down the hippy beads. The point is that if people want more divisions to take home useless plaques and trophys then go ahead. I've always shot by the mentality that if I won my class, I didn't win the match. It's that simple. Production and L-10 guys complain about high round count stages, since their mag capacity is less. Last time I checked, you're only shooting against other Production and L-10. Same for Revo. Go shoot the Crazy Croc with a revolver. Then you can complain about round counts.

Where do we draw the line. If a guy buys a XD that comes with 2-13 round mags, no magwell, but a decent trigger and sights. You have to tell him he's shooting Limited-10 or he has to load 10 in his mags and shoot Production. Then he says well the AWB is over why the F do I need to only load 10? It's the same argument as wanting a magwell in Production. It's a non-issue and if it is, then they don't get it to begin with.

L-10 being a tag category is just that. You're shooting in Limited Division, but you're in your own special little category of L-10, 'cause that's what you want to shoot. It's the exact same thing as revolver now. Heck, since the 8 round friendly rule is in place for stage design (which is a whole other pile of crap) it's not that much slower to shoot a 1911 vs. a hi-cap pistol. Looking at the 2005 Limited Nationals, you could have done pretty well with a single stack gun if you practice your reloading. Yes, it's Rob Leatham, but remember he did win the 1994 or 1995 (can't remember) Limited Nationals with a single stack (and Jack Barnes finished 3rd shooting the same).

That's just my $0.02. I'm going to shoot regardless. There doesn't need to be major scoring in Production. If there is then there's a competitive advantage of > 9mm pistols and that was the point of making Production minor to begin with. Again, you are shooting against everyone else in Production, not against Limited and L-10 shooters, so quit the whining.

Rich

[sfinney]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

+1 - With a small change or two -

Open

Limited (with tag categories of High L-10, High Revo, High SS, just like High Senior, High Lady)

Production (defined as what they are now kicking around as "Stock", no mods - you want mods, go play in Lim or Lim-10)

I don't think you could you could roll SS into Production, due to having major/minor in SS (and if you can't shoot major in SS, why the heck even shoot it, this Prov Division was created for .45's for the most part..... minor .45? Please!), and if 10 round capable single action minor guns, like 1911s are IN Production, they would have a significant advantage over most currently defined Production DA/SA or Safe Action minor guns.... the whole reason Production was created in the first place. No, SS needs to be a subset of Limited, if it doesn't stand on its own.

Oh.... and IPSC since '94. 3-Gun since 95 (on and off, mostly off)

Edited November 19, 2006 by sfinney

[uscbigdawg]

I agree. However, the only reason I rolled SS into Production was for the IDPA guys that want to come and shoot. No gear or mag changes. They can have all the same carry gear that they use in IDPA and just come over and shoot Production. 8 round mags and all. The 8 round mag is where I think the "advantage" of the SA 1911 would go away. Even if someone bought one in 9mm, the biggest mag I think that's out there that's flush is 9 rounds. So yeah, there's a 'better' action, but you're down on ammo.

Rich

Edited November 19, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[EricBudd]

C - As for believing that you have to do invest in full race rigs, that's why there's Production. So, you can bring out your Glock, Beretta, SIG, CZ, et. al. And sorry, if a magwell is going to be the difference between you shooting and not shooting ('cause you can still change what's important...sights, trigger and barrel) then don't play 'cause you don't get it anyways. It's not about having the same equipment as the next guy. It's about improving yourself as a shooter and just so happens that you stomp the hell out of the next guy.

Rich

That is one of the problems. Invest in Limited or Open or no cool toys for you! That is a great way to attract and retain new shooters.

As I see it, and I could be wrong, one of the advantages of L10, even for shooters in non-restricted states, is the ability to 'race' on a budget. You can do all the cool things that Limited does with you gear, you just can do it with more reasonably priced guns and magazines. Of course if the only important changes are sights, trigger, and barrel maybe Limited should be 'limited' to those. And if your old Limited gear isn't legal - just shot Open with it. It not like you be at a disadvantage or anything.

[uscbigdawg]

C - As for believing that you have to do invest in full race rigs, that's why there's Production. So, you can bring out your Glock, Beretta, SIG, CZ, et. al. And sorry, if a magwell is going to be the difference between you shooting and not shooting ('cause you can still change what's important...sights, trigger and barrel) then don't play 'cause you don't get it anyways. It's not about having the same equipment as the next guy. It's about improving yourself as a shooter and just so happens that you stomp the hell out of the next guy.

Rich

That is one of the problems. Invest in Limited or Open or no cool toys for you! That is a great way to attract and retain new shooters.

As I see it, and I could be wrong, one of the advantages of L10, even for shooters in non-restricted states, is the ability to 'race' on a budget. You can do all the cool things that Limited does with you gear, you just can do it with more reasonably priced guns and magazines. Of course if the only important changes are sights, trigger, and barrel maybe Limited should be 'limited' to those. And if your old Limited gear isn't legal - just shot Open with it. It not like you be at a disadvantage or anything.

L10 is shooting on a budget? Hmmm....the price difference between a STI/SVI vs. a 1911 of similar performance. The frame ('cause you're gutting everything else) and the mags (which aren't that much cheaper since you can buy 10 round mags from STI/SVI). Race gear is the same. Where is it cheap?

As for limiting the changes in Limited or L-10. No problem. I take my off the shelf STI Edge or Infinity pistol. Trigger job and sights. I'm done.

Rich

Edited November 19, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[EricBudd]

L10 is shooting on a budget? Hmmm....the price difference between a STI/SVI vs. a 1911 of similar performance. The frame ('cause you're gutting everything else) and the mags (which aren't that much cheaper since you can buy 10 round mags from STI/SVI). Race gear is the same. Where is it cheap?

Rich

CZ75 SA in 40cal with 5 mags, magwell, grips and sights from Anguswill set you back all of $700. Can't touch an STI for that price or a 1911. Same with an XD 40 - you add sights and a magwell and your ready to race in L10. There are lots of guns other than the 1911/2011.

Edited November 19, 2006 by EricBudd

[sfinney]

"Even if someone bought one in 9mm, the biggest mag I think that's out there that's flush is 9 rounds."

There are 10 round .38 Super mags for 1911s that are reliable and fit flush. Brass cost aside, give me a tuned 38 Super SS 1911 with 10 round mags, in minor, over a minor Glock any day of the week, heads up. But thats just me. I'm allergic to Glocks.

(and rumor has it there will be 10 rd 9mm mags out in the next year or so from at least 1 mag maker.... maybe).

Edited November 19, 2006 by sfinney

[uscbigdawg]

L10 is shooting on a budget? Hmmm....the price difference between a STI/SVI vs. a 1911 of similar performance. The frame ('cause you're gutting everything else) and the mags (which aren't that much cheaper since you can buy 10 round mags from STI/SVI). Race gear is the same. Where is it cheap?

Rich

CZ75 SA in 40cal with 5 mags, magwell, grips and sights from Anguswill set you back all of $700. Can't touch an STI for that price or a 1911. Same with an XD 40 - you add sights and a magwell and your ready to race in L10. There are lots of guns other than the 1911/2011.

And since there are hi-cap mags for the CZ's available now, why not just shoot Limited? If you're in a ban state, then shoot the same gun in Production minus the magwell and when you shoot a match out of state, back to the hi-caps. Or if the magwell, which apparently is a HUGE must have allow that if a manufacturer sells a gun in that configuration then it is allowed (establish a higher than normal production run numbers to eliminate random configurations).

There are 10 round .38 Super mags for 1911s that are reliable and fit flush. Brass cost aside, give me a tuned 38 Super SS 1911 with 10 round mags, in minor, over a minor Glock any day of the week, heads up. But thats just me. I'm allergic to Glocks.

(and rumor has it there will be 10 rd 9mm mags out in the next year or so from at least 1 mag maker.... maybe).

Yeah I thought there might have been. So there ya go. The only crappy part is using a SA gun in a DA/SA division. Well...then SS goes from Production to L-10 category under Limited Division.

So there it is.

Rich

[EricBudd]

And since there are hi-cap mags for the CZ's available now, why not just shoot Limited? If you're in a ban state, then shoot the same gun in Production minus the magwell and when you shoot a match out of state, back to the hi-caps. Or if the magwell, which apparently is a HUGE must have allow that if a manufacturer sells a gun in that configuration then it is allowed (establish a higher than normal production run numbers to eliminate random configurations).

Your right there are high caps for the CZ 75 based 40. They hold 12 rounds. With a base pad, maybe 14. The gun isn't competive in Limited. Neither is an XD in 40 or any number of other guns that started out life as a 9mm platform. The geometry of the magazine is all wrong.

And don't tell me limited isn't about capacity. We all know it is. Look at all the posts about how to get that 20th round into the magazine or posts about spending $$$ to get someone to tune the magazine so it runs stuffed with bullets, a modified follower and a base pad.

On the bright side it looks like L10 is back for now by one vote so it might be around in 2008. Just remember guys, check out how your area director and the USPSA president voted and remember when the next elections come along.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Flexmoney]

And since there are hi-cap mags for the CZ's available now, why not just shoot Limited?

Why not just have everybody else shoot Limited-10 ? (sounds kinda sucky, huh?....to some people)

People like different things.

[caps]

Why not just have everybody else shoot Limited-10 ? (sounds kinda sucky, huh?....to some people)

I think that's a great idea. EVERYBODY can shoot L10 but a whole lot of members can't shoot Limited due to capacity issues. L10 is truly National!!

[uscbigdawg]

I guess I'm in the minority of runnin' whatcha brung and not really caring about taking home a trophy. That said, let's create a division for each manufacturer. Don't forget that each manufacturer has to have seperate sub-categories for magwells vs. no-magwells, "gas pedals" vs. none, >15 round mags vs. <15 rounds, and any other goofy variation we can think of.

Personally, I'm going to write every member of the BOD and explain the uselessness of L-10 as a seperate division. It's served it's purpose and can go away since the AWB. Gotta find that Front Sight when I go back home so I can use the arguments for it, to be used to be the reasons it should go away.

Rich

[GeorgeInNePa]

I guess I'm in the minority of runnin' whatcha brung and not really caring about taking home a trophy. That said, let's create a division for each manufacturer. Don't forget that each manufacturer has to have seperate sub-categories for magwells vs. no-magwells, "gas pedals" vs. none, >15 round mags vs. <15 rounds, and any other goofy variation we can think of.

Personally, I'm going to write every member of the BOD and explain the uselessness of L-10 as a seperate division. It's served it's purpose and can go away since the AWB. Gotta find that Front Sight when I go back home so I can use the arguments for it, to be used to be the reasons it should go away.

Rich

Chuck D is SO going to give you a stern talking to!

[D.Hayden]

Rich.. if you don't shoot it why do you care?

You just want more people in whatever division you shoot? You shoot open, stay in open.

[omnia1911]

Why not just have everybody else shoot Limited-10 ? (sounds kinda sucky, huh?....to some people)

I think that's a great idea. EVERYBODY can shoot L10 but a whole lot of members can't shoot Limited due to capacity issues. L10 is truly National!!

Combining Limited and L10 into one division with a 10 round mag capacity would be too easy of a solution for reducing the number of divisions. The inevitable wailing and gnashing of teeth would follow.

Some on the BOD think that eliminating L10 is more politically palpable, while others don't want to rock the boat.

The need for a 10 round capacity race gun division still exists in the USA regardless.

[Nik Habicht]

I guess I'm in the minority of runnin' whatcha brung and not really caring about taking home a trophy.

O.K. --- I'm all in favor of one division, and we can even call it Open. Iron sights, no comps, ten rounds only, minor scoring only ---- unless you're shooting a 1911 as JMB delivered it to the Army in the early 20th century, in .45ACP with seven round mags ---- drawn from either a Blade-Tech DOH or any leather concealment holster of the competitor's choice......

On second thought, maybe we should all be shooting 2" J-frames in Revolver ----- that makes about as much sense at the local level......

[Chuck D]

"Chuck D is SO going to give you a stern talking to!"

Nope...

If people believe the AWB is gone...it's gone.

Hopefully it doesn't magically "appear" in YOUR home town. When it does...I get to ignore it, just like others have.

Has anyone given any thought as to the possibility of having to reinstate some form(s) of 10 round divisions in '08 or '09 ?

Edited November 20, 2006 by Chuck D

[Kory]

Every time there is talk of change reguarding the different divisions, people get upset.

Will anybody get upset if the divisions remain the same?

[Rocket35]

I am going to stay shooting in L-10 until they pry that division "from my cold dead hands" and support it the best I can. I have shot in all of the other divisions in competition- USPSA and/or IDPA. And the only two I care to continue shooting is Limited and Limited-10. Not that the others weren't fun, they just didn't fit the style of shooting I enjoy the most. I like to try out new gidgets and wizits. I like to tinker and race with my guns. So SS and Production are out, and Open and Revolver just didn't "feel" right to me. I would really hate to see it come to the point where I only have one place to play.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Rocket35

[uscbigdawg]

Rich.. if you don't shoot it why do you care?

You just want more people in whatever division you shoot? You shoot open, stay in open.

Dave,

I shoot every division. Just 'cause I don't have a classification in every one, doesn't mean I haven't shot it. The luxury of having multiple guns in every division is that I can shoot in whatever mood strikes me.

I'm withholding any direct attacks.

Rich

ETA: And I care 'cause I've been a member of USPSA probably a little longer than you and have seen too many changes that have yielded little to no benefit. And know that the sport was at it's highest membership when we had 2 divisions. Production has been great and L-10 has served its purpose. No one is saying eliminate it; since it has a place in the sport. Just making it a category within a division rather than a seperate division. Funny how no one made this much of an uproar when they removed Military and Law Enforcement as Categories.

Edited November 20, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[walangkatapat]

Frankly, if it was up to me:

Open

Limited (w/ tag categories in L-10 & Revo)

Production (w/ tag category for SS)

That's it.

Oh...and I'd bring back the Military back to a special category, but that's just me.

Rich

Makes too much sense, never happen.

[Crusher]

Keep 2/3

Keep 2/3

Don't add 9/10

203 votes ( roughly 1% of the USPSA members if all 203 are members) seems like a fairly large statistical sampling for an un-scientific poll.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Crusher