P-9 comeback???

[Thomas Moore]

what is a P-9?

[jhgtyre]

The P9 was a Tanfoglio based CZ75 clone sold by Springfield Armory a few years ago.  You can still by Tanfoglio guns from EAA or you can get the CZ75.  Either way a stock gun is only about $350.  

CZ is offering a comped gun that looks pretty cool with a street price of about $1150.  It doesn't have a scope mount but that and a few high caps would get you started for at least $1500 less than an STI with a few mags.  The downside is capacity.  The most I ever got in a CZ type mag was 25 and that was with an aftermarket 20 rounder with a CPMI basepad, wolf springs, and a follower with the bottom cut off.

-jhgtyre

[ErikW]

The only comeback my P9 is making is at the Steel Challenge. It's just not as soft-shooting as my STI, the trigger isn't as good, it doesn't have an ambi safety, and it doesn't have big stick magazines.

But Tanfoglio-based turnkey Open guns should be very attractive to new shooters and people looking to get their feet wet in Open. Mags are available and cheap, but at the low end of acceptable capacity. And they put to shame all the chopped 1911s trying to be light and handy.

The major problem is they are imported by EAA in the U.S.

[L9X25]

I still have one of the Tanfoglio "Gold Team" comp guns in 9x21.  It was a nice gun and I shot it for a year or two before I  realized that, althought it has/had a lifetime warranty, it had a limited lifespan at 180+ power factor.  I broke a barrel lug and later a slide (which were both replaced free of charge) and "could see the writing on the wall". I converted the gun to a Bianchi gun and feed it minor ammo.   The gun was simply not designed to operate at the old major pressures.   I believe that the guns would likely be fine at the current power factor.  I can honestly say that nothing feels as good in your hand as a P-9 style gun.  They are very ergonomic.

Leo

[L9X25]

My Gold Team gun felt pretty good at "near major" velocity.  I loaded my major match ammo to about 182pf with 130 gr bullets.  For local matches I would replace the 130gr bullets with 115gr bullets and the gun felt awesome.  The power factor was just under 175 but the gun was flat and soft.  The main difference from a 1911 style gun is the diameter of the comp.  Those guns also cycle VERY FAST!  We would video tape guns to see how flat they were and it would take around 3-4 frames for a 1911 gun to complete a complete cycle.  The P-9 would cycle between frames or it was open on one frame and closed the next.  It was difficult to catch on tape.

The trigger on that gun could be adjusted as light as you dared to have it with the roller trigger installed.  Mine is still about 24oz with a slightly longer pull than a 1911 style gun because of the geometry.  

I purchased some 20 round el-cheapo magazines and replaced the followers, springs and base pads with items from some of the gold team magazines and believe that I ended up with 26-27 rounds.  That is more than I can load with my current 9x25 SV guns.

Leo

[eerw]

I miss mine..it was my first hiCap gun and got me my mastercard..I think its only downside would be it wasn't as flat as my current STI/SV gun and doesn;t hold as many bullets.. I would love to get it back and rebarrel for 9mm to play with it..

[jhgtyre]

You guys should Czech out the CZ75 Champion.  All it needs is a scope and some mags.

-jhgtyre

[spook]

LOL, what do you think the current world champion shoots?

OK, he shoots one in .38 super.

I personally would never buy one. They're very popular in Europe, but that's mainly a cost thing. They are true jammomatics if you don't have a smith that knows how to work on it. The CZ75 champion is supposed to be really good though, and very cheap too.

[BrianH]

For a new shooter going into open, I wouldn't waste my money....you're just gonna want an STI later anyway, and the EAA Gold Team still retails for about 2 grand. Parts are not plentiful, nor are mags. I was sad to send my P9 down the road, I had just gotten it tweaked right, but mag capacity was killing me....

[rkgsmith]

If anybody's interested in the P9 style gun, look up George Smith at EGW. I had one of his guns in the early 90's in 9x21 and it was awsome. He new his stuff on the P9's.

[Jody Waring]

Hello everyone. I first got my P9 the year I graduated highschool in 1993. I had a local guy put a trigger, comp and a dot on it and shot about 20,000 rounds of 9mm through it. I heard of this guy in Ontario(Don Irvine) that specialized in them, and sent it off. I got it back in 9x21, four chamber 8-port comp welded beavertail,etc...

and a trigger job. This was in 1994 and this guns still going strong. I am currently shooting 124's and 115's at a 170 pf and it works great. I love these guns and am planning on building another. Parts are scarce, but the smiths that used to build them may do work for you if you ask. I believe that Open IPSC is like racing cars. You can see the different automakers out there, and they pretty much compete on a fairly equal basis. It comes down to the driver. Same goes for pistols, what you like and are used to can get you to the top if you want to get there. Eric Grauffel has the World title with a Tanfoglio. These like all the other popular choices will make you competitive if you do your part. I love these guns and others hate them. Yes the lower power factor will be a benifit to reduce the wear and tear as this helps everybody in the long run. Reduced mag capacity may be a problem, but why not learn to do fast reloads?

We all carry more than one mag don't we? I would love to sere these guns make it back into the circuit, and hopefully the lower power factor will encourage it.

[Jager1147]

I've been shooting a TZ-75 in 9x21 for about 10 years now, and I have always felt it to bve superior to the 1911 designs. You go through extractors, I go through slide stop pins. The gun is balanced, light, and tracks beautifully. The main complaint I have is mag capacity. The only other complaint with The TZ-75 is  disassembly, parts and springs fly from every module. Too many stages are designed where I reload and SV's don't, but again that is stage design. I have 25 rounds, and designers love 24 round courses for some reason. I remember when I shot a single stack comped 45 in open with 8 round mags, and supers were the hot ticket. Every match had banks of 5 targets, 10 shots! So I just shot faster. The TZ-75 design of the slide rails inside the frame is very strong, and nobody can make them run like George at EGW. Look out STI/SV!

[Jody Waring]

Jager,

Did you have your gun built by EGW? Would you share with me what you've had done to your pistol, and what parts you have in it? do you know where I could get a scopemount to use an Aimpoint Comp? I am still using the same PDP3 I have had for the last 8 years, its been fixed twice, been shortened, and a larger dot too. What are you using for load data? I was almost considering in investing in another barrell/comp assembly for 9mm, I've got a couple pails of once fired brass. In Canada, there are still lots of guys using these guns, but I would like to see their popularity rise in places that they once were the rage.

[Jager1147]

Yes, George Smith at EGW built the gun. Triple port comp, Huening trigger, EGW sear, and EGW recoil spring a must. All other springs are too light. Made major at 175 PF with WW540 with minimal pressure signs, my primers looked better than most supers. although I need to experiment with HS-6, I hear its the same powder. I have a Red Buff mount for a 30mm tube if you need, I use a C-more. Good to see some competition to the 1911's, to me the only thing that counts is where that bullet goes.

[BrianH]

I can't speak for George S., but I inquired a couple of years ago about a P9 open gun, and he led me to believe that, after everything he learned when it was the main open gun he built, that there were too many problems with part failure and that he wasn't really interested in building a major power P9(EAA).  He said open+minor, fine.  But open+major, probably not.  Of course, that's not to say that he WON'T, that's just what he told me....

[ErikW]

I forgot all about Canada and Hawaii and their 10 round Open guns. I would think the P9 would still be very competitive in Open there. Right away you've got the short, sweet handling the 1911 owners are tripping all over themselves hoping to get, with a better grip feel.

Jager I also used the 147s with 540 or HS6 (they are same powder), but eventually worked my way down to 124s.

The only things I broke were slide stop pins and an extractor hook.

I'd still be using mine if it wasn't so different from my Limited gun.

[eerw]

I was able to shoot a steady  diet of 124s in mine..using WW540. I had a 3port semi profile comp with side ports and used a Dr.Dot PDP2 scope..I remember we had welded a beavertail, magwell, rewelded the trigger guard, and checkered the front and rear...it was a beauty. Never broke a slide stop..Had two of the springfield slidestops and two of the Huening hardened pins...I liked the feel of the 9mm frame better than the larger 38super/45 competition frame that EAA came out with..very nice gun, with the lower power factor this would be a great gun in 9mm Major..

[jhgtyre]

I found another cool CZ with open possibilities at this site.

-jhgtyre

[rkgsmith]

My P9 that EGW built ran on a diet of WW540 and Accurate #5 without a problem. I used a red-buff mount and the hardened pins.  George welded up the beavertail and sold me some fully checkered grips that felt great.  The weak point of the gun is the sear system. The sear sits in a sear block, and the whole thing moves when you pull the trigger. I locked mine down with a set screw through the frame and had a good, crisp 2 lb. trigger  that held for about 10,000 rnds.

[Jager1147]

I never had a problem with the sear, crisp 1 3/4 lb. trigger also by EGW. Also a steady diet of 124's over WW540, but with the lower power factor I will try the 115's. EGW took my stock TZ-75 frame and welded on a magwell, big beavertail, and reshaped the underside of the trigger guard to raise it up. Made my own grip panels super thin with grip tape, and to me no other gun fits the hand so well. Iv'e broken 3 slide stop pins in 10 years, and always got extras in my bag. EGW also sells the pin without the lever, but I prefer the stock ones from EAA. They are slightly softer, and will start to bend when it's time to change so you gotta keep checking them after about 3 thousand rounds. Anybody use the Vhitavouri powders in these guns?

[ErikW]

I tried 3N37 and didn't like it. Nothing came close to 540/HS6.

When you guys start talking about welding on beavertails and magwells, that's when you lose the new shooters who may be attracted to this less expensive Open gun option.

[Jager1147]

Erik, thanks for the input on 3N37, what didn't you like? I had heard that it burns super clean. As far as the weld on parts, the EAA Witness comes stock with a beavertail and magwell now, also with single action trigger and checkered front and backstrap. I just picked one up used for limited, the gun cost $250.00 with 4 mags. This is probably bad news for the gunsmiths, and nobody likes to work on them.

[L9X25]

rkgsmith

You are right about the sear block being the weak link, and that is particularly true if you use a factory style ambi-safety.  The first solution was to keep the single sided safety or switch to a safety being produced by a machinist where he modified a single sided safety and extended the shaft to where it would protrude through the opposite side.  It created an Ambi-safety with a single solid shaft to secure the trigger block.  I purchased one of his creations and it solved all of the trigger problems.  That, together with EGW's roller trigger assembly, let me have a 20-24oz trigger that has lasted for years.  Before the safety upgrade the trigger was always inconsistent and became unreliable if you attempted to lighten the pull below 2#.

Once I started using the EGW recoil spring I never bent or broke a slide stop pin.  

Leo

[Shipster]

Erik and rkgsmith what kind of loads were you using with the win. 540 powder?

[ErikW]

shipster, the hot kind. I already mentioned bullet weights so you probably want specific powder charges. Check out Winchester data and Jeff Maas' 9x21 load list.

Jager, IIRC, 3n37 barked and stung too much, too snappy. But I think it was OK in the velocity department.

That sear housing issue blows. My stock P9 wiggles something fierce.

Does anybody have an opinion on the longslides? I was told they are mandatory because their extra weight keeps the slide from beating the gun to death, they stay locked up longer, and they shoot softer. Plus you need all the barrel length you can get when you are pushing such a low-capacity cartridge.

Tanfoglio's wide competition safety is the all-time great safety. You can activate it with your thumb joint without breaking your firing grip.