CSEMARTIN Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I just want to make sure that the legal situation is being followed and that I am not being singled out. :-) This is my take on it so far: 1- No reasonable person (i.e., RM) could say to themselves, "I'm going to track down everyone that didn't shoot the stage the way I wanted, despite the fact that my staff said it was o.k., and have all of them come back and shoot it over." 2- Matt, I had a feeling, before you said it, that you are getting singled out. 3- Has anyone thought about the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law? 4- Exploitation is a nasty synonym for the word 'gamer'. 5- There is no way anyone running the match can possibly figure out all the competitors that shot the stage the way Matt did. 6- The only way everyone can possibly be treated fairly in this situation is to toss out the frickin' stage. Were competitors later told that they couldn't shoot the stage the way Matt did? This whole thing is a mess. 7- If you used IDPA rules, this might not have happened.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 7- If you used IDPA rules, this might not have happened.......... Seriously, do we have to go there???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I was only kidding!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I just want to make sure that the legal situation is being followed and that I am not being singled out. :-) This is my take on it so far: 1- No reasonable person (i.e., RM) could say to themselves, "I'm going to track down everyone that didn't shoot the stage the way I wanted, despite the fact that my staff said it was o.k., and have all of them come back and shoot it over." This can be done in the right circumstances, and has been on several occasions that I know of. 2- Matt, I had a feeling, before you said it, that you are getting singled out. I don't get that at all. If the RM is going to try to get everyone that shot prior to the change to reshoot it, he has to contact them. Matt just brought it up here, that's all. 3- Has anyone thought about the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law? If this is a level III match, letter of the law applies. 4- Exploitation is a nasty synonym for the word 'gamer'. No comment. 5- There is no way anyone running the match can possibly figure out all the competitors that shot the stage the way Matt did. This is easily done. You check your squad matrix and see what squads shot the stage prior to the change, and confirm that with the score sheets in stats. Then, you start contacting people or considering your other options. 6- The only way everyone can possibly be treated fairly in this situation is to toss out the frickin' stage. Were competitors later told that they couldn't shoot the stage the way Matt did? This whole thing is a mess. It's a mess, but depending on how many people shot the stage "incorrectly", reshoots can prevent the stage from being tossed. It's really a matter of whether you can contact everyone and let them know they need to reshoot it, providing they aren't a couple of states away. Since Matt says it was sponsor/staff/earlybird day, I'd think that almost everyone is still hanging around the match, just not actively shooting it. I believe that Matt lives close by, or at least close enough that it won't be a huge hardship. 7- If you used IDPA rules, this might not have happened.......... Yeah, but we don't. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I was only kidding!!!! I just saw the flame war starting already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 7- If you used IDPA rules, this might not have happened.......... Politics! Politics! Politics! (see other current threads for details) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 I'm with Troy. We really don't have enough info to be calling it from the cheap seats. I know that, at the Nationals a few years ago, there were three or four squads that had to reshoot the handle on a closeline stage. The staff was able to figure that out. On staff day, the Range Master probably has a good chance to figure out who did what too. Matt is a good sport and a great shooter. I hope he tears up the reshoot. (Matt, great to have a range like that handy. Shoot the A2 and fire form some brass... Keep living the good life! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 We really don't have enough info to be calling it from the cheap seats. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 But, if the RM changed the WSB to prohibit the way Matt and crew ran it, then it's a required reshoot for everyone who did it the proscribed way.The rules are very clear on this point. Troy but Troy... 2.3.3.2 says "ALL" shooters complete the revised course with all previous attempts tossed out.....it doesn't say everyone who shot it "wrong"..... it says ALL...which to me means EVERYONE who has previously shot the stage whether they shot it right (whatever right is) or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 That's the ambiguity I was trying to articulate. 2.3.3.2 says that all shooters must "complete the course of fire as revised". What if the revision is simply a change to the WSB that requires shooters to go down the center hallway (rather than around the end of the tunnel? Would the shooters who already shot it that way have to reshoot it? They have *already* "completed the course of fire as revised"... haven't they? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 What if the revision is simply a change to the WSB that requires shooters to go down the center hallway (rather than around the end of the tunnel? Is just changing the WSB permitted under the rules? It would appear to violate 1.1.5. At anything above a level I match, you can't TELL the competitor to "run here, shoot there", you have to guide the shooter onto the desired path by stage design. So in this case a bar across the end of tunnel #2, or maybe a wall or a couple of barrels, whatever it takes to deny the shooter the option of by-passing the first tunnel. Requiring reshoots of everyone that shot it the "old way"??? 2.3.3.1 Would seem to say that ONLY the competitors who "caused the change" MUST re-shoot. 2.3.3.2 The first two words are "If Possible". What's that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ Bagger Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 What about leaving the stage description as it was when Matt shot it, and let everyone that figures it out shoot it the way Matt did? Seems to me that on nearly every stage in an area match, people find different ways to go about shooting them. Let it be. Maybe somone will come up with a way to skip every tunnel! So be it. That leaves only one guy upset, and that is the stage designer. +1 Anyone else wondering why this match still has so many people blathering about what a great match it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Anyone else wondering why this match still has so many people blathering about what a great match it is? I don't think one incident of one course having a minor issue like this warrants a comment to the effect of what you're implying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EZ Bagger Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 Anyone else wondering why this match still has so many people blathering about what a great match it is? I don't think one incident of one course having a minor issue like this warrants a comment to the effect of what you're implying.... What about all the other threads squabbling over walkthroughs, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted November 11, 2006 Author Share Posted November 11, 2006 EZ sorry but that has nothing to do with this issue or thread. Please no off topic posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Wonder Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 This situation clearly exploits the issues with USPSA rules (i.e. once a set of rules has been defined, they are then revised many times to accomodate some shooter's whim that they should be able to do something different or that they should be allowed to modify their gun in a different way than the rules are intended). In this case, the match designers and RO's didn't have a clear understanding of the stage in question. I agree with Matt, once the score cards are signed, it's over. By offering the scorecard to the competitor to sign, the RO has agreed that the competitor has fufilled the legal course requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 But, if the RM changed the WSB to prohibit the way Matt and crew ran it, then it's a required reshoot for everyone who did it the proscribed way. The rules are very clear on this point. Troy but Troy... 2.3.3.2 says "ALL" shooters complete the revised course with all previous attempts tossed out.....it doesn't say everyone who shot it "wrong"..... it says ALL...which to me means EVERYONE who has previously shot the stage whether they shot it right (whatever right is) or wrong. (And Bruce, too.) Yeah, yeah, all the shooters would have to reshoot it. I guess I didn't make it clear, but that's what the rule says, and what I meant. Troy This situation clearly exploits the issues with USPSA rules (i.e. once a set of rules has been defined, they are then revised many times to accomodate some shooter's whim that they should be able to do something different or that they should be allowed to modify their gun in a different way than the rules are intended). In this case, the match designers and RO's didn't have a clear understanding of the stage in question. I agree with Matt, once the score cards are signed, it's over. By offering the scorecard to the competitor to sign, the RO has agreed that the competitor has fufilled the legal course requirements. Nobody is revising any rules here. The discussion is whether or not, under the present rules, can the RM/MD require everyone who shot the course prior to the WSB revision (which is allowed, btw, and doesn't violate the concept of freestyle if you stipulate "from within the fault lines", or follow the rule about designating entrances and exits from tunnels), to reshoot the course. The answer is yes, the rule is clear. The other option is to remove the stage, and the rule is clear on that, as well. RO's and RM's make mistakes from time to time, it's my guess that is what happened here. The best bet is to try to correct the mistake and learn from it, not just let the problems compound themselves. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I'm with you Troy. There's two options here: 1 - Everyone prior to the revision that shot the stage (regardless of how they shot it) gets a reshoot. If they refuse they get a zero. 2 - Throw the stage out. I love how some random folks, that don't know the rules want to chime in that rules are being changed. Try crackin' open a rule book, becoming a CRO and then contribute something. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAshooter Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 The other problem is that the Match managment never defined the shooting area on this stage. The read/posted stage discripition said start in box A then engage targets as you see them. the match had this problem on stage 10 also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Well I am not a CRO or RM but I think Its part of the game and either all reshoot or throw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Whatever was right or wrong, Matt reshot the stage. In fact, he actually improved several points over shooting it the "wrong way" and ended up winning the match by just over 3 points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 does anyone know what was changed in the stage description? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 It was something like "access only through the tunnel" , I forget the actual wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Whatever was right or wrong, Matt reshot the stage. In fact, he actually improved several points over shooting it the "wrong way" and ended up winning the match by just over 3 points! Touche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Whatever was right or wrong, Matt reshot the stage. In fact, he actually improved several points over shooting it the "wrong way" and ended up winning the match by just over 3 points! Funny how "match karma" swings, ain't it??? Congrats, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now