Are There Any Good Courses/books/online Courses For Gunsmithing?

[Matt Griffin]

Thinking about starting to do some smithing, and I'd like to hear some experiences with programs, schools, and books.

H.

[Flatland Shooter]

H,

There's a lot of good books out there, but consider looking at the local community college to see if they offer any gunsmithing courses. There you will have access to a good gunsmith/teacher and the equipment that helps you learn to do the job right.

At our local Junior College you learn by doing. Your class project is to build a custom rifle (hunting or target, your choice). You pay additional for the parts, but you get to keep the gun.

Sounds interesting enough that I plan on attending when I get some free time.

Just my 2 cents.

Bill

Edited November 2, 2006 by Flatland Shooter

[38superman]

I think most gunsmiths start out as machinists and turn to working on guns.

Most are self-taught.

I looked into getting formal training once and found that there are very few offerings.

If you want to do it be prepared to travel.

One of the best seems to be Trinidad Community College in Colorado.

It is in the southern part of the state near Pueblo and has a very good reputation.

Tls

[shred]

Dave Sample (a member here) has done several online 1911-building classes-- not gunsmithing per-se, but building one from scratch.

[Loves2Shoot]

Budget a LOT of $$$ for tools, parts, in addition to the training.

[Pat Miles]

Ditto for what Lovestoshoot advised regarding tools. What books you might buy depends a bunch on what style guns you want to work on. If you ever decide to take a course at schools such as Trinidad State Junior College (been there, done that, loved every second of it!) make sure that you have a very good working knowledge of the gun(s) you are taking the class for. Otherwise you are wasting a portion of your $$$.

CYa,

Pat

[hitman]

I have seen several learn at home course, dont know how good they are.

I started out as a gun-nut and progressed from there.

A lot should depend on what and how much you want to do.

Full line gunsmith, basment gunsmith for your own benifit or a specialist, ala 1911 only.

If you have a local vocational school, see if they have a machine shop class, take it. this is a good start.

I have seen Daves work and his on line class should be very good, he is also working on DVDs, I think he has one or two out already.

There are also a lot of books on gunsmithing, always a valuable resource. Id say I have 50 or 60 books some are ref. only, some are worthless and some are worth there weight in gold.

It takes a lot of time, paticnce and money but if you enjoy it its worth it.

Buy the best files and equiptment you can, start small and work up.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I am a Tool & Die maker/machinist and auto tech. I found the AGI videos great. With those videos on the 1911 they will teach you alot. The machining part you will have to learn from a night school class or maybe a machine shop can help you. The tools will cost you some money but if you buy good ones they will last a very long time. There are lots of books out there as well but I find for me the videos work great since you can watch them over and over and over. Hope this helps. Thanks Eric

[Dave Sample]

Thanks for the kind words, Shred. You did a good job. I do teach Online 1911 Classes on how to build one Custom Pistol. I do not accept people who want to be gunsmiths. I am NOT a gunsmith. I am NOT a machinist. I learned to build guns part time and I use to build 1911's that are right up there with the best of them. There is no money to be made in building the best 1911 Custom Caspians. It simply takes too long. The Online Courses give a Student the way to aquire a very nice 1911 and learn how we build them from the ground up. It is a road map to success.

I did my share of factory gun tweaking, too, and that is very hard work, but does pay good. You throw away good parts, replace them with the latest improved washday product, install those great real metal parts instead of that horrible MIM stuff, do 2lb triggers, use big mills to chew away metal until it resembles something out of the funny papers, and get big bucks for doing these things.

I have tried to help a few of you people here with my 20+ years of experience, but it is really a waste of time. You guys really know a lot here and you don't need my help.

I have just booked the last Online Class that I will teach. We are at serial number 85 now, and we also had two other classes that had 12 students in one class and 15 in the other so I have done what I could for these neat guys that want to "Roll their own".

If you want to know how I do it, be sure to pick up the American Handgunner Annual, due out in March of next year. I wrote an article for Roy Huntington last year about the GSP EX Online 1911 that I did with the Gunsite Service Pistol I designed with Colonel Bob Young before he retired from his manager's job there. WE had three of those pistols at the Shot Show this past year and they were viewed by lots of gun guys&gals.

We sent the number one gun out there for a hard use test and it came back after six months and about 10,000 rounds with 0 malfunctions reported We did lose one grip screw during that test. I would say that speaks well for what we do with distance education.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Dave Sample

[Dave Sample]

This is after the hard use test. It still looks pretty good!

[Loves2Shoot]

I have tried to help a few of you people here with my 20+ years of experience, but it is really a waste of time. You guys really know a lot here and you don't need my help.

Why do a few know-it-alls have to ruin good folks from sharing?

Thanks from me Dave. I've read a lot of your postings and hope you will find it worth continuing to post in the future. I agree 100% there is more $ in tweaking and cutting up perfectly good pistols and throwing parts into a bin (that's why I have a Bridgeport in the shop) and building them from the ground up is a loosing proposition $$$ wise, but there is something satisifying about doing it still.

[Flexmoney]

I took the Cylinder & Slide gunsmithing class. I traveled to Nebraska, where we the class was held in the C&S shop. We each built a top quality 1911 (all top-shelf parts) with Bill looking over our shoulders and keeping us out of too much trouble. The class is a week long...and you do about 3 weeks worth of work in that time.

We didn't do any machine work in the class (nor did we need to). We built using hand tools. (C&S did the machining for our sight cuts, but you can order slides with appropriate sights cut already done.)

[Matt Cheely]

If you tug hard enough on your favorite gunsmith's ear they might help you out.

Thanks Dan

[Dave Sample]

What was your total cost of that course, Flex? I am talking about the added expense of room and board, too. I assume you had to purchase the parts for the 1911 you built? Your cost of the hand tools? I am really curious because several of my students invesigated that option and I have never really heard what the total outlay was. I do know you don't come out of there with a $150,000.00 machine shop.

In the year 2006, most of the really good Pistolsmiths are also very good machinists. This is a very different set of skills that are really good to have now. When I started building 1911's, I did it without a machine shop. Caspian did the sight cuts for me and I did everything else by hand. My goal was to build very nice pistols without a machine shop as I was a late starter and had no desire to take 20 years and $150,000.00 to become a machinist. I was into hand cut checkering and my desire was to "Finish The Job" which none of the really big name guys did at that time. They started with finished guns so they did not think that looks were important. They were beating down frame rails and pinching slides and welding up barrel lugs and just having a great time trying to make sows ears into silk purses. I produced a silk purse from high end parts, 58 of them. I bought the best and the parts that were proven to hold up. I did not let my clients pick the parts because I did not think they knew what was good and what was junk. The people that sell this kind of stuff have wonderful agency's and big full page color adds. They get big bucks for stuff made in China or ? and sell it for 10 times what it costs them. More power to them! I just pass on that stuff and chuckle to myself when I read the price they are charging for that campfire stuff they sell. Remember, someone has to pay for those nice $5800.00 pages in gun rags. My students do not get to pick the parts, they do get to make some decisions on options.

I think the "Gunsmith Business" is the worst possible choice for a way to make a living. I was too smart to want to do it full time and I could have made that mistake very easily. I made a living in other places and kept the 1911 work as a really nice hobby so I had the luxury of not having to work for a jerk. I have met a few of them and have let some of them slip into my classes, but I am not a perfect picker of people and never will be. I try hard to not let them in, but fail sometimes.

I have tried to help a few people in gun forums who asked for it, but I find that they cannot tell who knows what and that there are many posters who speak about this and that and it sounds really great, if you don't know that they have read a book or a thread somewhere about that particular subject. I am not here to argue. I have had a 41 year committment to be of help when and where I can, and I am not trolling for work because that is not what I do. I closed my business down years ago because I became the court of last resort and people were bringing me junk that other folks had messed up. I still do single action tune ups once in a while, but UPS pretty much killed that business. Their overnite sillyness made it pretty expensive to ship guns back and forth.

I wish you all the best and I am not picking fights here. I am just not going to argue with the "Experts" who know everything about 1911 type pistols. I have been working on them for 20+ years and am still learning new things to do to them to make them run better and longer. I also do not have time to duke it out on gun forums because there is no point in it. You guys are also gamers and play games with your 1911's and I am more into hard use law enforcement type guns. I know about those kind of race guns, too, because I built a few for others and myself. I still have a couple laying around here in the safe. I spent $20,000.00 and five years trying to win a match and failed. It was great fun, and I enjoyed it, but gave it up when I moved to Prescott 14 years ago.

I have enjoyed my visits here. I have met Brian on several occasions at the Shot Show and he is a real gentleman and a credit to the shooting sports. There are not that many people with the talent he has and he uses it wisely. Have fun and keep your powder dry!

[hitman]

Ahmen Dave.

[Stumpnav]

As far as books go, the ones by Patrick Sweeney are outstanding.

I've got his 1911 and AR15 books, and I've had nothing but praise for them.

My only problem is waiting for the second part of the AR15 book.

[Flexmoney]

Dave,

I'm not sure if your whole last post was addressed to me, or if just the first was and the rest was just you sharing thoughts?

Anyway, I respond a bit...

What was your total cost of that course, Flex? I am talking about the added expense of room and board, too.

I don't quite recall. I took it in 2002. Anybody can figure out what room and board will cost them. You gotta eat, wherever you are. (Double Cheeseburgers only cost a buck at McDonald's ) I'd suggest a cheap room. You don't get to spend much time in it...just sleep and shower. The rest of the day is filled with learning to build the gun. The day doesn't end when you've put in 8hrs., the day ends when you've learned what you were supposed to for the day.

I know that the current prices and the course outline are posted on the C&S website. They may have the tool list, equipment list and all that posted too. If not, I got all that info when I talked with Bill on the phone before I spent any money. And, talking with Bill on the phone before hand was a treat. He is a good guy.

I assume you had to purchase the parts for the 1911 you built?

Yes, of course.

Your cost of the hand tools?

All of that is covered in the course information, as I recall. I know I had that info before I decided on the class. You leave out of the class with top quality tools and the knowledge of how to put them to work. I still have all those (hand) tools...everything I need to build a gun by hand...using very top-shelf parts.

I am really curious because several of my students investigated that option and I have never really heard what the total outlay was. I do know you don't come out of there with a $150,000.00 machine shop.

The Cylinder & Slide course isn't a machine shop course...at all. It's all old school...which is great, because that allows any student to go home and be able to build on their bench. No need for all the expensive machine shop equipment and space.

When I started building 1911's, I did it without a machine shop. Caspian did the sight cuts for me and I did everything else by hand. My goal was to build very nice pistols without a machine shop...

Yup...same thinking with the C&S course.

I bought the best and the parts that were proven to hold up. I did not let my clients pick the parts because I did not think they knew what was good and what was junk. The people that sell this kind of stuff have wonderful agency's and big full page color adds. They get big bucks for stuff made in China or ? and sell it for 10 times what it costs them. More power to them!

I'm guessing that you aren't now talking of the Cylinder & Slide course. Nothing there even comes close to resembling the C&S course.

[Dave Sample]

Thanks, Flex, for the kind response. I am always curious about these things. I remember the first 1911 build course I taught at Yavapai College was much cheaper than what we do today. I think that was in 1995 when I did that one. It was wriiten up in Guns Magazine by one of my students, Jeff Smith and it was a neat article. He was in a wheel chair and did a great job. There are all kinds of ways to skin a cat as Grandma used to say! I was not refering to anything Bill may have done relitive to parts, because I have no idea what he is up to. When he first started it he had the students bring a factory gun to the class. I suspect it is about $5000.00 to take it now. I am glad to hear that you enjoyed it.There is a certain satisfaction to giving birth to a 1911!

[Flexmoney]

I was not refering to anything Bill may have done relitive to parts, because I have no idea what he is up to. When he first started it he had the students bring a factory gun to the class.

I'm not sure, but I think he may of had student bring a gun way back when...long before I went to the class. I recall that he stopped doing that because of the lack of quality of those factory guns and the lack of consistence with what the students would show up with. Everybody builds on the same stuff now (and it's been that way for years). That helps to keep everybody on the same page...meaning the Bill doesn't have to spend all his time with one guy who brought in some crap parts.

My gun's part list reads like it ought to: Caspian slide and frame, Barsto, C&S ignition parts, Videki trigger, S&A magwell (my request), EB grip safety and ambi's, Bomars melted, Wolff springs...

[Dave Sample]

It sounds to me like you ended up with a very good 1911, Flex! I use similar stuff for the Online Classes. Thanks for your input!

[kygundoc]

I guess I am one of the few that did it the hard way. I served an apprenticeship as a Tool and Die maker and them served a four year apprenticeship with a Master Gunsmith. Back in the 80's I built a few guns for local shooters. Ken Tapp, Bobby Carver and such Then got burned out and went back to tool and die. Now all I want to work on are a few Glocks. I am enjoying shooting now that I do not have to work on guns if I do not want to.

[Dave Sample]

I don't know of an easy way! It is still hard work for me!