World Shoot Qualifier

[Flyin40]

I had a great time spending the 4 days up in Michigan. Had alot of fun hanging out with some good people. The match was nothing less than fantastic. The Ipsc portion was extremely hard. You just had to know when to hit the brakes.

I got to squad with Sharyn and Smitty and both are great shooters. I wanted to ask Smitty some more questions but didn't want to bug him to much and distract him from getting prepared. He did offer help whenever I ask. This guy can flat out shoot. Also was able to squad with Ron Avery and had a good time with him.

I was surprised that for the Uspsa match I was squadded with a bunch of Ohio guys. It was like shooting our local match.

After last yrs nationals and being caught off guard with the long stages I had been practicing group shooting for a couple months now so those long shots didn't bother me all that much. Some of my better stages were the 50meter stages.

Sharyn, you don't happen to have any video of me shooting the stage 5 in bay 3 from the Uspsa match do you?? I pretty much smoked that stage and would love to see it on video

Great you meet everyone and see some old friends.

Flyin

Edited May 23, 2007 by Flyin40

[chuckw]

Equipment cards are a pain in the ass. IMO. Even moreso since our shooters and staff aren't used to them at all. Time waster.

I'm still no fan of the short/medium/long course ratios. But, it's not fair for me to comment on that since I didn't shoot both matches. (I worked them both.)

The sight picture thing is more trouble than it's worth.

The IPSC Production grip tape picture that Vince had made up...isn't official (I understand that might be quickly fixed). The IPSC rule book reads different than the picture.

As an official, sorting out the 'warnings' is a pain too.

The calibration zone on the poppers being different is weird. (I might be inclined to agree with IPSC on that...which would favor giving the shooter a reshoot for a poorly hit calibration shot...on steel that should have went down in the first place.)

So you're saying basically everything to do with IPSC sucks?

Edited May 23, 2007 by chuckw

[MasterLefty]

Congratulations to all involved in this match. By all accounts it was a cracker.

Ok! The dust has settled. So, divisions aside, were there any really signficant differences between the IPSC match and the USPSA match? How could they best be summarised?

What is a USPSA match?? I have been a member of USPSA for 22 years and I compete in IPSC matches, although when said matches are held in the US they have been under the USPSA version of the IPSC rulebook but it is still an IPSC match. (OK, it's just semantics and I know what Neil is asking but thats the truth.)

The 3-2-1 ratio is a recommendation. Most pure IPSC matches (read: no revisions to the rulebook) that I've shot have followed this ratio, but the medium courses are between 10 and 24 rounds. Jeff/Larry and company hosted an excellent match and followed section 1.2 to the tee. (I prefer Brazil's balance rather than a straight out of the book design.)

Short courses: If there is a short course at a US held match, it will only require one position and most of the time the targets are all static. IPSC short courses on the other hand rely on activator targets to present an additional challenge. The TE match followed this format.

The US exemptions on sight pictures do not affect me. I don't feel the need to point the pistol at every target. (although, I heard that Jerry M got a warning for taking 2 sight pictures)

Equipment checks are not a problem, but I can see when as an RO if you are not use to performing them where it could be a nuisance. (I noticed a couple of lax calls on position, but they were caught by seasoned IPSC RO's before the competitor shot and got bumped to open.) I would like to see the physical firearms check be performed before the match rather than dumping it all on the chrono officer, but that is just a person preference.

The equipment card is the best place to track warnings, but most stages gave us the cards back after the check. (Also, I don't think that anyone in my squad received a warning so it didn't matter. It could also be that our squad was mainly Canadian and two crazy Texans. )

Each style of match holds its own flair and flavor and each is equally fun to shoot. A two position short course can offer as much if not more challenge than a 20 round squirt fest. The TE may have leaned a little heavy on the accuracy side of the DVC triangle, but it was not a problem if you know your pistol, the sights, and you know your cadence on each distance and type of shot.

A lot of US start positions rely on two dots, place heals or toes on the marks and TE followed this pattern. I like the style of using a 0.5m board and the requirement of feet touching anywhere on the board.

Kenny

Now if I can resolve the ammo troubles and keep the scope on for all stages, I'll be ready for Tulsa. If anyone is interested, I can repair an OKO scope. I completely took mine apart Thursday night to trace an electrical short (at the LED inside the module). The only problem was knowing whether or not I had returned it to zero elevation. Found out after the first stage on Friday (8penalties&7misses). It was 150mm low on the close targets.

Edited May 23, 2007 by MasterLefty

[LChico]

Congratulations to all involved in this match. By all accounts it was a cracker.

Ok! The dust has settled. So, divisions aside, were there any really signficant differences between the IPSC match and the USPSA match? How could they best be summarised?

Equipment checks are not a problem, but I can see when as an RO if you are not use to performing them where it could be a nuisance. (I noticed a couple of lax calls on position, but they were caught by seasoned IPSC RO's before the competitor shot and got bumped to open.) I would like to see the physical firearms check be performed before the match rather than dumping it all on the chrono officer, but that is just a person preference.

The equipment card is the best place to track warnings, but most stages gave us the cards back after the check. (Also, I don't think that anyone in my squad received a warning so it didn't matter. It could also be that our squad was mainly Canadian and two crazy Texans. )

We actually tracked the warnings in 2 places-- on the equipment cards & on the squad lists. The cards were needed to diagram position of gear & to record warnings and comments on each stage. But warnings were also added next to the shooters name on the squad lists. All squad lists were returned to stats at the end of each shooting rotation & new one's were sent out each day.

The reason for the duplication was to correctly add the warnings back if the card was "lost." We only had one lost card.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2007 Targeting Education Statistician

[Matt Griffin]

Hey Kenny, thanks for the info. This is Matt Griffin, I was on your squad for the IPSC match, and I can back you up when you complain to Vince about the ROs screwing up your dot on Thursday.

I enjoyed all of the shooting, and frankly I love the half-day formats. 12 or 14 full stages in a day is pretty taxing, even on a young guy. I'm going to start working out on 50 yard targets, it can only make me better.

H.

[Flexmoney]

So I guess you didn't believe me. The picture is official. Perry Wilson showed me the official printout of rule interpretations approved at the GA Meeting in Manilla in January. The interpretations were approved but not listed on the website. The rule book does not read differently. It reads the same way that it has for years, that tape may be applied to the grip. Some people just took a narrower interpretation of that rule than has previously been used.

Oh...I don't dis-believe you. Not at all. I just think it was a pain is the ass to have to deal with it in any way, shape or form. I did read the rule on it (the morning before coming in after I heard you were dinged). I can see where just the wording in the book gave the RM(s?) the impression that they got. I'd have to dig into the interpretations to find out if the picture is "official" or what the deal is. Which...pretty much sucks to have to do.

My fix would be...it's freakin' grip tape. If your hand touches it when you grip the gun...giddy-up. Let's shoot.

It's a distraction you shouldn't have had to deal with.

**************

I saw (and see) no mention of it in the "official IPSC rule interpretations" at http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgunInterp200607.pdf

And, the IPSC rule book wording:

20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the

application of tape on grips is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

[MasterLefty]

I enjoyed all of the shooting, and frankly I love the half-day formats. 12 or 14 full stages in a day is pretty taxing, even on a young guy. I'm going to start working out on 50 yard targets, it can only make me better.

H.

It was great shooting with you too. 50+ yards is no problem (if you have a working scope), I cut by I-teeth on standards. What taxed me was all of the climbing and descending into the bays. I was glad I had first class seating coming home Saturday morning, my calves were in a serious state of cramps.

Kenny

[Jim Norman]

traveling warnings are wrong. You get a warning on a short stage an get dinged on a long course, you lose 10 of maybe 160 points. You get a warning on a long course and get dinged on a short courde and lose 10 of 40-45 points. Two shooters withexactly the same infractions on the same stages, all else beinf 100% equal the result is different. That is WRONG.

I am happy that USPSA sees fit to eliminate that rule.

I feel that the equipment cards are not needed nor do they do much if anything or us. If each stage is a separate engagement, then what does it matter if the holster is worn slightly different or if a mag pouch is moved back for a prone stage.

My opinons.

Jim

[Barrettone]

Congratulations to all involved in this match. By all accounts it was a cracker.

Ok! The dust has settled. So, divisions aside, were there any really signficant differences between the IPSC match and the USPSA match? How could they best be summarised?

To me, IPSC is more about the shooting, and less about agility. Don't get me wrong, there are field courses, and you have to get in and out of shooting positions quickly, but accuracy really rules the day, as the short and medium courses comprise more of the points if you run a true 3:2:1 ratio. These small and mediums USUALLY have less movement. Cadence disruption, transitions from near to far, and awkward shooting positions are more prevalent, as they tend to test ones shooting skills better. Remember, a classic target is 33% smaller than our metric targets (competitors continually remarked how HUGE the metric targets looked in the USPSA match that followed). Larry Houck (Co-MD) and I poured over the last 3 World Shoots and all the Continental Championships when we devised this match. All of the above is what we pulled out of it when we broke down the game film. The American shooters found it to be a hard match, because they do not frequently practice these skills. All of them walked away stating that they now knew what they had to work on to compete at the World level. I sincerely hope we helped them to focus on what is important, and that it enables them to represent us well in Bali. USPSA focuses more on run-n-gun hoser stages that are up close and personal, because that is what people like to do. It is not really a TRUE shooting test, but more of a track meet with guns. I think that both have their place, but IPSC shooting is a better test of overall skill with a pistol. We have become soft, and a little too newbie-freindly IMO when it comes to designing stages for our bigger matches (we want to make the new guy feel good too, and not disparage him/her). This hurts our proficiency levels. We needed a reality check, and we got it. This Qualifier was a true test of pistol shooting skill (and all shooters GM to D class were equally inconvenienced by those difficult shots). My hat is off to Larry for delivering it to our range.

Edited May 23, 2007 by Barrettone

[BritinUSA]

+1

The small/medium type stages definitely push the shooting skills more than the close run and gun type stages. The top guys can shoot anything well, but the rest of us need an education even if it is sometimes painful.

I spent years shooting this kind of stuff in UK and World-wide in European and World Championships. It amazes me how much my skills have declined in the 9 years that I have been here. I used to be really good at the small/medium stages, at the Rio match I only managed 51%.... Nine years ago I would be have been pushing 90%.

[caps]

traveling warnings are wrong. You get a warning on a short stage an get dinged on a long course, you lose 10 of maybe 160 points. You get a warning on a long course and get dinged on a short courde and lose 10 of 40-45 points.

Your argument is flawed. As it was explained to me, it's no different to when a cop lets you off with a warning for a moving violation, but you get fined the second time he catches you making the same moving violation.

Relating a penalty to the stage where you were warned or get dinged is a red herring. If you lose 10 points, that's all you lose, no matter how big the stage where it's written down.

[Jake Di Vita]

Even though I disagree with why the warnings are being given out...if you just forget and do it once and get a warning....no harm no foul....but if you do it again you kinda deserve what you get. The amount of points available on the stage is irrelevent, if you do it the 2nd time after the warning, you are a victim of your own smartness.

[driver8M3]

can someone explain the grip tape controversy from the ipsc match????

[EricW]

can someone explain the grip tape controversy from the ipsc match????

I can in one link: http://www.vincepinto.com/ipsc/awards.htm

OK, maybe two:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?sho...ic=4828&hl=

(You will have to join the Global Village and pass muster to view the above)

My comments on the matter have miraculously been allowed to stand on the IPSC forums. I will not repeat them here. And I don't think the debate/discussion should be in this thread. Honestly, I don't think there's anything left to discuss...

IPSC_GripTape.pdf

Edited May 23, 2007 by EricW

[Sharyn]

Sharyn, you don't happen to have any video of me shooting the stage 5 in bay 3 from the Uspsa match do you?? I pretty much smoked that stage and would love to see it on video

John Stage 5

[driver8M3]

yeah, i had read that global village thread previously. did something happen to chuck at the michigan match?

[Chuck Anderson]

can someone explain the grip tape controversy from the ipsc match????

Long story short, after 8 stages the first day another competitor came up and told me that I should be careful that the RO's not see my gun because it had grip tape on it. I have a CZ SP-01 with a section of grip tape covering the front strap and the rear strap. I have discussed this with Vince Pinto and was told that it was 100% Legal. I even stripped out any parts that Angus had worked on when I bought the gun and reinstalled factory drop in parts in order to be in 100% compliance with IPSC rules. I was a little miffed when I heard this. I went to Amidon and asked about this. Amidon said that the grip tape was illegal. I also checked with Perry Wilson the other RM. He showed me the section in the rule book that he said stated it wasn't legal (Which Flex quotes above, BTW I think that means it is legal.) After both RM's said it was illegal, and since I shot 9 stages with it I went to stats and told Linda to bump me into Open since I shot an illegal gun.

I went home that night and checked Global Village and PM Vince trying to get clarification ( I may have also had some adult beverage). Both my reading of Global Village along with the photo that Eric posted were found and printed out. I also got a reply from Vince saying that the photo was official and that I was 100% in compliance. When I got back the next day I showed it to Perry and he said that it looked good and thought I should remain in Production. I went to stats and talked to Linda only to find out that she didn't put me in Open because she hadn't heard from a match official and wasn't going to let me screw myself over (Thanks Linda). I thought every thing was fine and dandy till I talked to Amidon and showed him the photo. He said it wasn't official and didn't matter. I had a fun couple of next stages and finished the match not knowing what the heck was going on. I did tell Amidon that I wasn't going to self bump and that if he wanted to put me in Open that me might as well round up an Arbitration Committee at the same time.

It ended with Nick Alexakos contacting Vince Pinto and I believe two other members of the IPSC Rules committee to find out what the heck was going on. The interpretation on the rules was approved in January of this year. The photo is attached along with the wording below it that Eric posted. As near as I can tell exactly like that. It is a one page print out that looked like every other interpreation sheet except it had pictures for the folks who can't read. The ruling is official. The photo is official. Grip tape is legal on the front and back strap.

Oh, and BTW. I wasn't the only one with grip tape on the front and back strap. I was just the only one dumb enough to call it to the attention of the RM's and make an issue of it.

Chuck

[Matt Griffin]

There was also a competitor with a bit of grip tape on his trigger guard. He was moved to Open.

H.

[Barrettone]

Lawman,

Please also understand that we were going off of all the PUBLISHED interpretations. IPSC had not posted those interpretations yet on their website (3-4 months after this ruling ), so it was on them...no reflection on our staff, as they were going with what IPSC gave us. I just wanted to be clear on that.

[chuckw]

I have a CZ SP-01 with a section of grip tape covering the front strap and the rear strap.

How is that illegal? The rule-book says "tape on grips". How can a front strap and rear strap NOT be part of "the grip"?? Do they really need a diagram for that??? Looks like a bad call to me.

[Flexmoney]

Lawman,

Please also understand that we were going off of all the PUBLISHED interpretations. IPSC had not posted those interpretations yet on their website (3-4 months after this ruling ), so it was on them...no reflection on our staff, as they were going with what IPSC gave us. I just wanted to be clear on that.

I agree 100%.

Chuck, when I tried to look the rule up, as far as I knew, you were (still) in open. I was looking for wording on the IPSC site to get you back in Production.

I didn't have a whole lot of internet time to spend on it (hotel in the morning), but I didn't find the picture and such on the IPSC site.

Any way we look at it, it was a pain to have to be dealing with it. It ought to be real simple...anywhere a shooter touches their gun while shooting, that is their "grip" (IMO). That should include the front and bottom of the trigger guard...thumb along frame...whatever.

That would make it easy from a shooter perspective and from a match official perspective.

None of us should need to get on a computer and being trying to figure it out.

[miche]

11.8.3 All rule interpretations published on the IPSC website will be deemed to be precedents and will be applied to all IPSC sanctioned matches commencing on or after 7 days from the date of publication. All such interpretations are subject to ratification or modification at the next IPSC Assembly.

Rules FAQ http://www.ipsc.org/

4. Can I apply skateboard or grip tape to the factory grips, or change the grips, of my Production Division Pistol?

Yes. See Point 20.3 of Appendix D4 in the January 2006 Edition of the IPSC Handgun rulebook.

If you want to apply grip tape in a Glock, of course, you have to apply in front strap and rear strap, same to any production approved pistol.

[MasterLefty]

Flex, Since this starting to drift away from Jeff's GREAT match and into rules dissussion and interpretation, should the thread be split?

Any way we look at it, it was a pain to have to be dealing with it. It ought to be real simple...anywhere a shooter touches their gun while shooting, that is their "grip" (IMO). That should include the front and bottom of the trigger guard...thumb along frame...whatever.

That would make it easy from a shooter perspective and from a match official perspective.

None of us should need to get on a computer and being trying to figure it out.

There's the rub. Where you grip the gun, where I grip the gun, and what the manufacturer calls the grip are three different things. There are separate rules for competitor and equipment.

(This is one of the many reasons why I wouldn't touch production with a 3.05m pole. There is also the lack of a dot-lens thingy , Wait a minute! I did that on two stages, on top of the gun. )

Kenny

[Flexmoney]

I already looked at splitting it, but didn't find a nice junction point to do so. Maybe we should just quit with the grip talk and get back to the match.

My squad rocked !!

[Steve Moneypenny]

I was the shooter who mentioned it to Chuck, He is a really nice guy and great shooter to compete against I'm sorry it caused all of this controversy, I just wanted to make sure my buddy stayed in production.

I agree this was the toughest match I've ever shot. THANKS! I seem to do better the harder the shots and the tougher the match. I Still don't know what happened on the 50 yrd stuff. i generally do bill drills on 12x14" steel out there. I'm not saying that I'm a better shooter than anyone there.. but for the most part, they are definitely all better runners than I am. I am totally looking forward to more IPSC matches in the future. Guess I'm going to have to read their rule book with a fine tooth comb.