Jim Norman Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I may be wrong (gee what a novel idea) but I think the following from the IPSC Constitution demands of each Region that they run at least one match, each year, sufficient to name a Champion.(5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion. Gary PRC? Peoples Republic of China? Yes they held a match, but no locals shot to my understanding. Japan, holds matches in other countries. We could arguably hold a single IPSC match and the winner would be our champion. It would be more than the previous two regions have held. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampleworks Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 ...USPSA Nationals only gets just over 350 competitors... You may want to do a little bit of reading before commenting further. The USPSA nationals could get 500 people pretty easily if the slots were available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Okay...I've got a chair, some snacks, now where's the beer cart? All I need is a beverage and this could be a fun show to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Why would we want to shoot matches in Ohio? IMHO, our matches are far more exciting. Really? Which match in Ohio did you find boring? I've been to the matches in Quincy but never set foot in Ohio. Have you seen the matches in the Philippines? Didn't you just say matches in Ohio were boring? I din't say anything (at all) that was negative about the PI...nor would I. If you thought so, you might want to re-read what I said...and maybe figure out what I meant. I you want talk about Ohio...be damn ready to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Okay...I've got a chair, some snacks, now where's the beer cart? All I need is a beverage and this could be a fun show to watch! It's going to be fun until Flex reads his post and closes the thread. Let's all be civil and get back on topic. Remember, it's about the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) It's going to be fun until Flex reads his post and closes the thread. Let's all be civil and get back on topic. Remember, it's about the shooting. That's a good Flex impersonation, Dale... Edited October 21, 2006 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 This is crazy. The more I think about it we should tell IPSC to shove it. IPSC was invented here. USPSA is the biggest member of IPSC and they'd be screwed without our membership fees. USPSA is the only superpower in IPSC and we have the best shooters in the world. Why do we keep wasting time having all these arguments when everyone knows Americans never take $hit from foreigners? What has IPSC ever done for us? I say we give IPSC 6 months to do it our way or we quit. Let some one else form a club to handle the 47 people who give a $hit about IPSC and let them not us bow down like subjects to their foreign dictators. I say it's time we stopped acting like we need IPSC and take charge of our own future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 You might want to consider how much money IPSC actually gets from USPSA. It ain't much and they could easily survive without the pittance they get from us. If I'm wrong, a strong possibility, someone please correct it. But I believe that the regions pay based on the number of members they have. But it's capped at something like 2K members. We're only paying on that number, so actually per capita we pay the least of any region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 IPSC reminds me of the UN We keep signing up and they keep screwing up. I know its not all bad but its not what it should be. I am sure this will inflame the Tories but really what does IPSC do for USPSA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 But it's capped at something like 2K members. We're only paying on that number, so actually per capita we pay the least of any region. Three thousand, if I wasn't lied to, and we are one of six Regions so capped. Since our Da Prez has stated that the US is half of the world's shooters, that seems like a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money that IPSC is losing just because they...(one) don't want to admit how many shooters actually...shoot...IPSC and (two) because they REFUSE to give half of the WS slots to....Americans. One thing to keep in mind: while USPSA is open and aboveboard as a non-profit organisation and makes no secret of their membership numbers, IPSC keeps membership numbers as a close-held secret. I wonder why? I've been growing increasingly curious as to why we allow IPSC to deal with us like they have been since, well, Day One. In the "what we give for what we get" mathmatics, we don't seem to be doing well at all. Just like the UN, come to think of it. Arguements and discussions on Vince's Forum are more like...anything an American comes up with is wrong, end of thread, delete immediately. Very strange. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Way off topic, but... I plan to introduce a motion this weekend, which would change the slot policy so that the current Open and Standard World Champions would be included in the "earned slot" allocations for a slot to the US Nationals. Bruce Good idea, but please don't forget Production Division Champion Better include Revolver Division Champion in this too..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) Why would we want to shoot matches in Ohio? IMHO, our matches are far more exciting. Really? Which match in Ohio did you find boring? I've been to the matches in Quincy but never set foot in Ohio. Have you seen the matches in the Philippines? Didn't you just say matches in Ohio were boring? I din't say anything (at all) that was negative about the PI...nor would I. If you thought so, you might want to re-read what I said...and maybe figure out what I meant. I you want talk about Ohio...be damn ready to back it up. Flex, funny ---- I didn't read it that way at all. He said he'd been to more exciting matches in the Philippines ---- you inferred that he was calling Ohio matches boring. Grocery shopping --- boring. Reloading ---- BORING. 3 stage club match ---- interest starts to awaken. Good 5-7 stage club match ---- exciting. Good Area match ---- more exciting. Summer Blast ---- Always very exciting. U.S. Nationals ---- Extremely exciting! 2004 Buckeye Blast ---- pretty darn exciting, but I have shot better matches. That's not talking trash on the fair Buckeye State, there's just so much excitement you can cram into a 1 day affair...... [edited to fix my earlier..typo...which was quoted here] Edited October 21, 2006 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) "IPSC was invented here." The South Africans and former Rhodesians may have something to say about that.... "...we have the best shooters in the world." Ever hear of a guy named Eric Grauffel ? My original inquiry had to do with the ability and/or desire to host a 3rd handgun nationals as Vince had stated was necessary.... This was NEVER meant to be an IPSC vs. USPSA pissing contest..... "How does (or doesn't) this fit into the current trend of "too many Divisions" and "dilluted talent pool" thought processes of some USPSA members and BOD's ?" No one has yet answered this original question ...not even the 2 BOD's that posted their thoughts..... Edited October 21, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Okay...I've got a chair, some snacks, now where's the beer cart? All I need is a beverage and this could be a fun show to watch! I've got the beers right over here! "IPSC was invented here."The South Africans and former Rhodesians may have something to say about that.... "...we have the best shooters in the world." Ever hear of a guy named Eric Grauffel ? My original inquiry had to do with the ability and/or desire to host a 3rd handgun nationals as Vince had stated was necessary.... This was NEVER meant to be an IPSC vs. USPSA pissing contest..... "How does (or doesn't) this fit into the current trend of "too many Divisions" and "dilluted talent pool" thought processes of some USPSA members and BOD's ?" No one has yet answered this original question ...not even the 2 BOD's that posted their thoughts..... Chuck, they are talking about having 3 IPSC World Shoot qualifier matches, anyone of those could be called the "IPSC National Championship". I may be wrong (gee what a novel idea) but I think the following from the IPSC Constitution demands of each Region that they run at least one match, each year, sufficient to name a Champion. (5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion. Gary PRC? Peoples Republic of China? Yes they held a match, but no locals shot to my understanding. Japan, holds matches in other countries. We could arguably hold a single IPSC match and the winner would be our champion. It would be more than the previous two regions have held. Jim Jim, here's an idea. I don't think there is a IPSC Antarctica, maybe we could get that going and run the matches here. We could take turns being RD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckw Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 (edited) But it's capped at something like 2K members. We're only paying on that number, so actually per capita we pay the least of any region. Three thousand, if I wasn't lied to, and we are one of six Regions so capped. Since our Da Prez has stated that the US is half of the world's shooters, that seems like a SUBSTANTIAL amount of money that IPSC is losing just because they...(one) don't want to admit how many shooters actually...shoot...IPSC and (two) because they REFUSE to give half of the WS slots to....Americans. One thing to keep in mind: while USPSA is open and aboveboard as a non-profit organisation and makes no secret of their membership numbers, IPSC keeps membership numbers as a close-held secret. I wonder why? I've been growing increasingly curious as to why we allow IPSC to deal with us like they have been since, well, Day One. In the "what we give for what we get" mathmatics, we don't seem to be doing well at all. Just like the UN, come to think of it. Arguements and discussions on Vince's Forum are more like...anything an American comes up with is wrong, end of thread, delete immediately. Very strange. Alex Why should we care how many members there are in other countries? If the US is over half of IPSC and over half their income why don't we demand half the WS slots? If IPSC doesn't give them then the US should boycott the WS and that'll be the end of that match. The US needs to project it's power just like the military. I don't agree about the IPSC forum though - MANY more threads are closed here! I have no fight with VP who's always replied to my emails same day. The issue is USPSA and we need to get out of Dodge! Edited October 21, 2006 by chuckw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Jim, here's an idea.I don't think there is a IPSC Antarctica, maybe we could get that going and run the matches here. We could take turns being RD. Interesting since obviously one does not need to be a soveriegn nation to be a region. Think Guam and Puerto Rico. Maybe we could just declare eastern PA and NJ a region. I'm in! Lets see we could even pay the maximum dues! we'd have all the same rights as USPSA. We'll alternate holding our matches in NJ and PA. Think of it. I could have a vote on the IPSC Council equal to Mr. Pinto! Let's be honest here, do you really think that we'd get approved as a region? Maybe if we get Wakal as VP? OK, tongue in cheek mode off. We now return you to our regular program. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Hey, keep me me out of that Other Left Coast Region...I'll stay in the Texas Region Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 My original inquiry had to do with the ability and/or desire to host a 3rd handgun nationals as Vince had stated was necessary....This was NEVER meant to be an IPSC vs. USPSA pissing contest..... Chuck is right...we need to get back on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 The problem with Chuck's original question is that it was misleading and incorrectly framed...since there is NO 'requirement' to hold a IPSC Nationals in the US Region. Direct data shows that IPSC Regions don't have to hold "championship" matches in their Regions, as per those totalitarian regimes like Japan and China that (while nominally IPSC Regions)...do not. The question of why ISPC allows Regions that do not allow their subjects to own or even touch firearms devolved from that, as did the requirements to actually BE a Region. As discussed elsewhere in this otherwise amusing thread, under the IPSC rules the US Region could hold a club match for the 49 people who actually value IPSC over USPSA, and call it good Alex PS I've been in negotiations with the number three official in Turkey over setting up a IPSC Turkey Region (which went nowhere, see previous totalitarian statement), as well as talking to the Vatican Ambassador to Turkey (with the goal of setting up the Vatican Region back in Rome, to supplement the Italian Region and help out the Swiss Mercenaries). It is not like I avoid pimping IPSC, I just don't see it having very much value to USPSA since IPSC has gone on the "US-bad everyone else-good" route. I feel the same way about the equally effective international "UN" organization, FWIW AW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caps Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) the following from the IPSC Constitution demands of each Region that they run at least one match, each year, sufficient to name a Champion.(5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion. Direct data shows that IPSC Regions don't have to hold "championship" matches in their Regions I'm confused with the two opposing comments above. Who is right? You or Mr. Stevens? Edited October 22, 2006 by caps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted October 22, 2006 Author Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) "The problem with Chuck's original question is that it was misleading and incorrectly framed...." Really..... this is what I asked... If Vince's statement was true and accurate, IPSC would require USPSA to host an IPSC-USA Nationals. Simplified...would hosting a 3rd Nationals further dilute the talent pool and add to the "too many Divisions" problem....we'd have: Open, Limited, Standard, L10, Modified, Production (2 versions with very different rules), and Revolver regardless of the frequency of IPSC only rules matches being held here. "...there is NO 'requirement' to hold a IPSC Nationals in the US Region." I would imagine IPSC sees this differently.... "How does (or doesn't) this fit into the current trend of "too many Divisions" and "dilluted talent pool" thought processes of some USPSA members and BOD's ?" This is what I'm seeking input on... Edited October 22, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 the following from the IPSC Constitution demands of each Region that they run at least one match, each year, sufficient to name a Champion.(5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion. Direct data shows that IPSC Regions don't have to hold "championship" matches in their Regions I'm confused with the two opposing comments above. Who is right? You or Mr. Stevens? They are both correct. The IPSC requires each region to hold at least one competition each year to select a champion as Gary pointed out. Alex points out there are regions, such as Britan and Japan, which prohibit civilian ownership of guns and who therefore travel to other countries in order to fullfil their obligations to hold a match. I can see no problem with this. If the USAF can have a base in Turkey we do not think of it as the Turkish Air Force but as ours. If Japanese shooters must travel to Guam to hold a match to select a Japanese champion then may the blessings of Hachiman rain upon them for showing such determination to practice our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Just so. You have to read the actual words in the order in which they are written, and not read them the way that you think (or wish) that they are written. (5) To conduct a competitive programme under IPSC Rules sufficient to designate in each year a Champion That sentence does not contain the phrase "in the Region" anywhere Since the term "sufficient" does not have a special definition in the rule book, then anything the Region comes up with and considers sufficient (see previous "...the 49 US shooters who value IPSC over USPSA" comments) is, well...sufficient. As per the Regions based in totalitarian countries holding their "championships" somewhere else. Dilution? I'm still backing the BrucePlan for USPSA: Open -Modified -Open Revolver (minimum .32...Hellooooo, ICORE!) Limited -Limited-10 -Production -Single (but not any single stack except 1911 ) Stack -Revolver That puts us back to two Divisions with recognized subcatigories (including the USPSA-neglected Modified, my favorite Division from a "gee whiz that is cool" standpoint). We could add "IPSC Standard" and "IPSC Production-type Raceguns in Raceholsters" to the Limited side and really confuse everyone...but STILL only have two Divisions. On a slightly different issue: I'd be happy to work toward merging Limited and Standard...I'll give up my 6" STI and move my holster back two inches if IPSC allows 140mm magazines. It is a lot cheaper for half the world's shooters to buy new basepads than for the other half of the world's shooters to buy new magazine tubes Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 (edited) Alex points out there are regions, such as Britan and Japan, which prohibit civilian ownership of guns and who therefore travel to other countries in order to fullfil their obligations to hold a match. A small correction needed here. Britain doesn't prohibit civilian ownership of guns in total - only handguns and semi auto rifles other than rimfire. We have an extremely active IPSC Shotgun following, we have a National League, National Gradings and usually run 5 Level III IPSC Shotgun matches a year. In turn we crown a National champion. Indeed over in the 3 Gun Forum you will find discussions from a small handful of USPSA members that intend to visit the UK for the British Open next year. Kurt Miller and Pat Kelly have both visited us in the past. We fielded the largest number of competitors from any Region at the recent European IPSC Shotgun Championships in Greece with 36 competitors, beating even the hosts. We were the only Region with a Ladies Team and a Junior Team We have rifle matches and a developing interest in long barrelled revolvers, which in conjunction with a small extention fixed to the butt legalise the guns as "carbines" instead of as handguns. They can be drawn from a holster and while they aren't very practical and aren't going to pick up any medals in a serious IPSC match, at least we are still sending lead downrange This in turn provides a background for 3 gun tournaments although not in a format that either IPSC or the USPSA would (could) recognise and sanction. We have a popular and stil growing Airsoft competition circuit, which provides a background for competitors from which to set forth to shoot international IPSC matches. We took up our entire allocation of competitor slots at the last IPSC European HG Match and at the last IPSC WS. Yes! We have some cr*p laws but we're still actively shooting and we are contending with limitations rather than a complete ban. Edited October 22, 2006 by Neil Beverley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Alex points out there are regions, such as Britan and Japan, which prohibit civilian ownership of guns and who therefore travel to other countries in order to fullfil their obligations to hold a match. A small correction needed here. Britain doesn't prohibit civilian ownership of guns in total - only handguns and semi auto rifles other than rimfire. We have an extremely active IPSC Shotgun following, we have a National League, National Gradings and usually run 5 Level III IPSC Shotgun matches a year. In turn we crown a National champion. Indeed over in the 3 Gun Forum you will find discussions from a small handful of USPSA members that intend to visit the UK for the British Open next year. Kurt Miller and Pat Kelly have both visited us in the past. We fielded the largest number of competitors from any Region at the recent European IPSC Shotgun Championships in Greece with 36 competitors, beating even the hosts. We were the only Region with a Ladies Team and a Junior Team We have rifle matches and a developing interest in long barrelled revolvers, which in conjunction with a small extention fixed to the butt legalise the guns as "carbines" instead of as handguns. They can be drawn from a holster and while they aren't very practical and aren't going to pick up any medals in a serious IPSC match, at least we are still sending lead downrange This in turn provides a background for 3 gun tournaments although not in a format that either IPSC or the USPSA would (could) recognise and sanction. We have a popular and stil growing Airsoft competition circuit, which provides a background for competitors from which to set forth to shoot international IPSC matches. We took up our entire allocation of competitor slots at the last IPSC European HG Match and at the last IPSC WS. Yes! We have some cr*p laws but we're still actively shooting and we are contending with limitations rather than a complete ban. Thanks Neil. (Note to self: say handgun when you mean handgun.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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