Why Mor?

[George]

MOR isn't really all about using a manual rifle on the exact same courses of fire the open and standard semi-autos run on, but actually shooting at targets out to 500+ yards in similarly run stages. Not the same thing at all. In some of the previous MOR matches there have been way more targets beyond 200 and 300 yards than under 200 yards. The match this year in Albany was disappointing in that the farthest shots were just under 500 yards and there were nowhere enough of them IMHO. The recent match wouyld have benefitted immensly with a dozen more steel targets in the 200-400 yard range and a few more at a good bit beyond 500 yards. A 2 MOA shot at 600 yards is not tough by any means, but it does require some degree of riflery to hit as opposed to just plain putting the crosshairs of the scope anywhere on a generously sized steel plate and mashing the trigger on our AR's like we do for most of the supposedly LD targets in the main rifle stages at multigun events.

There are almost never any shots beyond 320 yards in the regular IPSC rifle matches and absolutely never any beyond 370 yards (or meters if preferred). The whole idea of MOR in the first place is to shoot a bolt rifle (BTW, rules on actions help to level the playing field and are a good thing in a racing game) at targets way beyond the distances normally presented to us in IPSC rifle (at the very least, up to 2x what you see in the main match) and to do a major portion of that shooting at beyond 300 yards as opposed to under it. MOR ain't sniper shooting and even though it doesn't present the same challenge, the 2MOA hold required on a number of the LD targets at the recent match were not easy shots for any un-prepared rifleman ;-)

As RS notes, the history of the stages actually run at past MOR matches have an average accuracy requirement of just over 2MOA in the worst cases and as I mentioned earlier, 2MOA is what should be the accuracy requirement mark of this game. Tough enough to make ya' work on the long stuff, yet not so demanding that it is un-doable with a decent huntiung rifle type rig. IPSC rifle is a 4-5 MOA game and NOT as challenging as MOR should be if practiced properly. They are not the same animal and need to be hunted differently IMHO.

[kurtm]

Level the playing field? I bet the really good shooters will still win, even if it is a "bolt". Rapid weapons manipulation is the sign of the upper end whether it a AR mag change, running a pump, or running a bolt. Only way to "level a plaing field" is restrick how fast one can do the weapons manipulation, then it would just be about the shooting, and I think they call that "Benchrest".

IPSC rifle...never over 370yds???? ( I have more of these..?.. don't make me use them).

First off IPSC rifle and what we call 3-gun are WORLDS apart ( ask me how I know and I will show you plane tickets) How about 800 METERS at the Nordic Rifle championship in 2005? How about 375M at this years which IS over 370yds. NO, NO, IPSC rifle ISN'T like what we do! Very little steel, and scored Classic targets at EXTENDED RANGE, making the A zone sub MOA past 500M and better BEER!!

Now lets look at what we do. Several of the old SOFs had shots out to 600yard, RM3G has had them out to 400 Yards as has SMM3G and you will see this material again! Why don't we see this all the time? Because historically people either zero these stages or they time out, and Match producers realize people want to have fun, not zero stages. Sad to say but LONG range stages are not everyones cup of tea, due to many reasons, such as not knowing their zeros, no extended range to practice on, there eqiupment doesn't meet the challenge...etc.

Now since 1/2-3/4 of the competitors will zero a long range stage shooting at "huge" targets as you allude to, why wouldn't we allow them to use their AR for further practice at long range on smaller targets if they wished? I think to grow your sport you need to look at it. BTW I can really crank a bolt gun fast! I might not be able to hit anything, but man I can run a bolt, so I don't think that is too level maybe we should lube my rifles with sand and broken glass! KURTM

[George]

My mistake using the word IPSC to speaak of USPSA rifle shooting, Kurt. I really wasn't discussing any matches other than USPSA ones either. SOF matches from another era mean diddly here also.

I was additionally not aware that the Nordic Rifle match had shots over 350 meters. I DO know for a fact that there has NEVER been a shot past 370 yards at ANY USPSA 3gun/multigun nationals, EVER.

Now that we have those fact issues out of the way. I can also say back to you that it is "MORe" than quite obvious that whoever is the quickest will usually be the winner at anything, DUH! Leveling the playing field is always needed in any sport to eliminate the mechanically assisted reasons someone is faster than someone elsea nd allow the actual capability inside someone to be measured on the clock. If you don't level a playing field, you can't measure the play accurately and this thing we call a sport is all about measuring.

I think USPSA MOR is the where we CAN have shots at distances that would have most 3gunners whining and moaning about it. The folks I know who want to shoot a game like MOR are interested in shooting something other than an AR too!

I really don't give a rat's a$$ how many folks don't like my opinions here, I think USPSA MOR is worth keeping and fixing and I ain't gonna' change my mind no matter how much "crap" is slung at this issue.

[kurtm]

For a guy that uses IPSC and USPSA so interchangably you sure get crabby quick and trust me the beer really is better at IPSC! KURTM

[VNGunfighter]

Again, if MOR is so WANTED at these matches why doesn't USPSA have a MOR Nationals???

Through past expirence, I know for a fact that a " MOR Nationals " would not be sold out for any reason, likely to get in the numbers USPSA would even want to put on a match.

[MKuhn]

Dear RS

I should have responded sooner but I was at a match.

Quote from you; (Could you name those matches you are referring to?) My response; Yes I can, in fact I have shot in five.

Your statement; (If you compared them to pistol matches: Precision matches = bullseye pistol matches. MOR @ Albany = USPSA pistol match.)

Rebuttal; That's still utter BS.

Your proclamation; (I wouldn't call those matches precision rifle matches. They have elements of precision rifle. But IMO they aren't precision rifle matches. Take a look at their names:

ITRC = International Tactical Rifleman's Championship

Monthly Raton Match = "Sporting Rifle Match"

http://demigod.org/~zak/firearms/precision/

Recent team match at Raton = "2006 Practical Rifle Team Challenge")

Response; Other have all ready posted to that dribble better than I could.

You claim; (They don't call themselves "precision" rifle... because they aren't precision rifle matches.)

Well OK, if its the name, there are no matches that I know of that are called "precision" any thing. Even though a fair amount of the shots are long and small. I guess we must agree to disagree.

You commented; (I get the feeling like you/we/I are confusing the issue(s). The thread has snaked into "what should with do with USPSA MOR matches." Or at least hat's what I have been posting about. Do you think a discussion on rule changes in USPSA MOR matches is somehow going to change or is even applicable to the matches you described?)

The matches I have referred to are in fact "precision" regardless of what you think. Further more, your touted USPSA MOR should be a "precision" shooting event as well, otherwise it's just another hoser, so what's the point?

"crux of the biscuit"! A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

To "level the playing field", you will have to handicap the better shooters. The ones who win will always win no mater what they bring.

So, bring them down to a lower level and the last place shooter would determine that handicap. Just like in golf or bowling.

The repeat winners win mainly because they work harder. As far as reversing technology and requiring a 19th century design, makes little sense to me. In fact black power metallic cartridge is already there and there crying for contestants (they shoot over 600yds at 1 MOA size targets, Is that to precise for a MOR match?).

Love you long time

Mell

Edited October 25, 2006 by MKuhn

[Religious Shooter]

Quote from you; (Could you name those matches you are referring to?) My response; Yes I can, in fact I have shot in five.

So which matches were they?

Your statement; (If you compared them to pistol matches: Precision matches = bullseye pistol matches. MOR @ Albany = USPSA pistol match.)

Rebuttal; That's still utter BS. .

How's that BS? Is there only one and only one definition of "Precision Rifle" per some dictionary somewhere? In my posts I have indicated what I thought "Precision Rifle" is. Fine if you don't accept it. But wouldn't it be logical to take into account what my definition is of "Precision Rifle" and take that as the meaning when reading and interpreting my posts?

Use my definition of "Precision Rifle" and tell why my statement above is BS?

You claim; (They don't call themselves "precision" rifle... because they aren't precision rifle matches.)

Well OK, if its the name, there are no matches that I know of that are called "precision" any thing. Even though a fair amount of the shots are long and small. I guess we must agree to disagree.

Yup. I disagree with you.

The matches I have referred to are in fact "precision" regardless of what you think. Further more, your touted USPSA MOR should be a "precision" shooting event as well, otherwise it's just another hoser, so what's the point?

Why change USPSA MOR to a precision rifle event when there are other precision rifle events? Should we change USPSA pistol to IDPA pistol... just because?

Have you shot USPSA MOR? How can you call it "just another hoser" match? Are you saying there are other MOR "hoser" matches out there? What matches are those? I'd like to shoot them.

... and what exactly is your definition of "Precision Rifle"? Are you like EricW and you believe that biathalons and sniper matches are Precision Rifle?

So when you say "USPSA MOR should be a "precision" shooting event" you want it to turn into a biathalon event? Or to a sniper match where you gotta wear a ghillie?

"crux of the biscuit"! A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

To "level the playing field", you will have to handicap the better shooters. The ones who win will always win no mater what they bring. So, bring them down to a lower level and the last place shooter would determine that handicap. Just like in golf or bowling.

The repeat winners win mainly because they work harder. As far as reversing technology and requiring a 19th century design, makes little sense to me. In fact black power metallic cartridge is already there and there crying for contestants (they shoot over 600yds at 1 MOA size targets, Is that to precise for a MOR match?).

Love you long time

Mell

Dribble!!!!!!!!

I know you only love short time.

The ones who win always win because they practice AND have winning equipment. Your kidding yourself if you think the equipment doesn't matter.

I bet ya if the match winner in Albany had a .22 LR and iron sights I would have beat him at that match. ... I mean barely but I'd beat him just the same.

[George]

Kurt, I absolutely agree that IPSC has better beer options. There are 3 reasons, Location, Location and Location. The next time we are in the same location, the beer is on me :-) I guess I tend to think of USPSA as an area of IPSC as opposed to thinking of USPSA as a standalone sport :-)

The concept of a level playing field does NOT mean limiting a competitors ability. It ONLY means that the mechanical means the competitors provide for themselves outside of their own flesh and blood and bone (read their gear here) is equal enough to another competitors gear to bring it down to who really has practiced more and is just plain better/faster. Leveling a playing field through equipment specification is not the same as "Handicapping" and I am not promulgating "Handicapping" ina any way, shape, or form, just keeping autos out of MOR in a heads up manner. Separate division, OK, but not directly against the bolters. I don't think we need more divisions so in effect I think autos don't belong in MOR because they un-level a playing field unless they are only running against themselves.

There have been 4 USPSA MOR Nationals held to date.

#1 in Las Vegas in 2001 during the USPSA 3gun Nationals

#2 in Las Vegas in 2002 during the USPSA 3gun Nationals

#3 in Reno in 2004 during the USPSA Multigun Nationals

#4 in Albany in 2006 during the USPSA Multigun Nationals

[Boulderado]

I shot the USPSA RENO MOR match a few years back with a .308 Ruger 77 bolt gun and Burris 10 power scope. I was also a spectator at the Albany MOR match this year. I also participate in the MOR and long range rifle matches that Eddie Rhodes puts on once a month in Pueblo, CO.

I hope that gives me a little credibility ...? Anyhow here is my thinking on the matter: If you are going to have matches like the Reno affair with targets out to 700 yards you might be able to get good hits with hunting rifle, but what is really going to hurt you is your optics. Most hunting scopes DO NOT have the 70 to 100 minutes of angle for windage and elevation adjustment ranges to be able to get the gun on a 700 to 1200 yard target no matter what the caliber. Hence, competitors will have to pop for a nice chunk of change to get a proper scope. If you hold the range to no grater than 500 meters most .308 hunting type rifles and $500.00 hunting scopes should be somewhat competitive amongst themselves. So my point is that if you want to have Long Range MOR matches (700-1200 yareds) like they do once a month in Raton and also down in New Mexico, you're going to have to spend some serious coin on a scope at the very least. I'm saving up for one :-)

getting back to Patrick's original question paraphrased as: Why not auto rifles in MOR? I've shot a Heavy Metal BAR-10 and a DPMS LR-308 in matches against MOR's and AR's with scopes and Bipods out to 400 meters. I think it is quite challeging and have since put a scope on the DPMS gun. BUT! When I shoot I'm classed as Heavy Metal and the MOR's are classed as MOR and the .223 guys are classed as tactical. So, what are my recomendations for autos in MOR (perhaps better called Long Range)?

I like Kurt's Idea of a power factor for auto rifles ... MAJOR (320 PF) would be my choice.

the autos would have to be in a different class Auto vs. MOR. Naturally the autos would most likely always win overall because of their shot to shot speed and large cap mags. Never-the-less, if USPSA wanted to do it it would be simple to do. I also like Kurt's idea of small targets to simulate greater range and generally make the targest more challenging.

Our Military is using SR-25's and Bolt guns for LR work. I don't think the bolt gun is going to the fossil bin anytime soon, but the SR-25's are sue going to give them some very real world competition among the troops who use them. What say you ...?

Best to All,

Darrell

[MKuhn]

RS

So, what’s your name? I like to know whose insinuating I’m a liar!

And you are right, you may squeak by if you are armed with a with a manual reset capacitor magnetic gauss rifle firing a ferrotungsten projo, to there Win 1902 22 short MOR.

Love you in the dirty way

Mell H Kuhn

[Religious Shooter]

So, what’s your name? I like to know whose insinuating I’m a liar!

Where I'm I insinuating you are a liar?!?!?!

The love you short time part?

GL did the same thing you are doing in a different thread. Called me Jabba the Hutt and a girl.

To be crystal clear I'm not calling or insinuating you are a liar at all.

[bigbrowndog]

When it comes to............. OPINIONS!!!!!!!!

REMEMBER

AS....ALWAYS

YUER RONGE

TRAPR

mell, whats your next 3 gun?

[MKuhn]

Was going to shoot the rifles only match on 10/28 but alass to much work, so maby waco, thats to far to go by my self, will look for a partner. The next will be tac pro sniper on 11-18, then Ft Benning. And you?

[milanuk]

Okay... maybe a dumb newbie question here...

Pat & Eric,

Where would that match last year in Ephrata that Carl Carbon put on come into this picture? I was told it was run more or less by 3-Gun style rules, but it was pretty much a 'run-what-ya-brung' affair as far as weapon type. I had to leave early and had been kind of ham-strung as far as gun selection myself due to some stuff being 'in the shop' so to speak, but I didn't see anyone really running away from the pack based on their choice of gun instead of their ability w/ said gun. The targets weren't necessarily that hard in an absolute sense, but adding a bit of speed did up the difficulty enough that people were having a good time, which is what this is all about, right?

Monte

[warpspeed]

From the USPSA BOD Minutes-

In related discussion, the President further said he is in favor of eliminating the Manually Operated Rifle division and create a "Precision Rifle" firearm type, with separate Manual and Auto divisions therein. The small and/or distant targets used in these matches do not work with non-magnified sighting systems. He has been asked by quite a few shooters to allow semi auto rifles into the MOR match each year.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Yes , no , maybe ?

[h4444]

Where else are you could to shoot your bolt guns,,,without it being an NRA style match of 20 rounds or whatever.........taking figuratively 5 minutes per shot.........

There aren't a ton of options,,,,,there aren't many places to take those guns to compete with,,,,,regardless of how much money you spend on them.

Take it for what it is, you're free to plink all by your lonesome if it is that bad......

H4444

[Jim Norman]

Why not both? PRD Precision Rifle Division,

MOR

Semi

Same COF, Same scoring.

I agree, where else can I shoot my 700 or my M1A?

Jim

[uscbigdawg]

Why not both? PRD Precision Rifle Division,

MOR

Semi

Same COF, Same scoring.

I agree, where else can I shoot my 700 or my M1A?

Jim

Now there's probably the best idea yet on this.

Instead of allowing semi-autos to run AGAINST bolt guns, a seperate division for them. While I'm in general anti-new divisions, MOR has always been a "wildcat", and the community is relatively small, the immediate impact is small and at this point anything to spur more interest is a plus.

This would spur more debate amongst the mouse guns (myself included) on what rifle is good for what match/what range. For instance, do I run a DPMS LR-308 or build a new upper for my rifle in like 6.5, 6.8 or 243 WSSM? AR-10/SR-25/LR-308 (or .260) vs. M1A! Hi-power cats with their CMP/DCM Garands can come out, etc.

So how about calling it Precision Rifle w/ Manual and Auto Division?

Rich

Edited November 23, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[warpspeed]

Why not both? PRD Precision Rifle Division,

MOR

Semi

Same COF, Same scoring.

I agree, where else can I shoot my 700 or my M1A?

Jim

That is how I interpret what was written.

mind.

[Religious Shooter]

If you allowed autos into "MOR" the stages would become more oriented to "dot" games.

In Albany they used two 150-200 yard bays, a 50 yard bay and a 450+ yard bay. USSA is supposed to have two 100 meter ranges, one 300 meter range and a bunch of pistol bays. These are the typical range dimensions that USPSA MOR will be shot in.

Step back and think a bit what the stages would be like if you allowed autos into MOR. What kind of stages can be had within those range dimensions that would make using a semi-auto in "MOR" be significantly different from the rifle portion of 3Gun?

Using "dot" targets is the only way I can see it being interesting for autos. "MOR" is going to become just another "dot" game.

[bigbrowndog]

I must have missed the memo............what the he!! is DOT, dept. of transportation???

without knowing, the above post makes no sense to me, but then i'm not all that bright!!!!

hope every one had plenty of Turkey n dressing

trapr

[warpspeed]

If you allowed autos into "MOR" the stages would become more oriented to "dot" games.

In Albany they used two 150-200 yard bays, a 50 yard bay and a 450+ yard bay. USSA is supposed to have two 100 meter ranges, one 300 meter range and a bunch of pistol bays. These are the typical range dimensions that USPSA MOR will be shot in.

Step back and think a bit what the stages would be like if you allowed autos into MOR. What kind of stages can be had within those range dimensions that would make using a semi-auto in "MOR" be significantly different from the rifle portion of 3Gun?

Using "dot" targets is the only way I can see it being interesting for autos. "MOR" is going to become just another "dot" game.

How many times have we shot Limited & Open on the same COF ? Like every time ?

So, instead of having 20-30 shooters they get 130 shooters. 30 bolt guns and 100 AR platforms. The AR guys compete against each other and the bolt guns against each other. And if both live with the current Max 5 rounds in magazine, it might be a closer race than you think.

[uscbigdawg]

This is going to bring up old discussions of the T2k et. al. vs. stock bolt guns, but I'm for upping the round counts on MOR stages to around 7-9. I think reloading is fun, especially for a bolt gun. The stressor of not wanting to reload more than you have to will force folks to execute cleaner shots (i.e. improving overall marksmanship...our intent).

That said, if it became an issue, the addition of a Hunter class would probably have to get added in. But let's work on increasing head count before adding anything.

Rich

ETA: I don't see MOR being a "dot" game (i.e. a series of dots, paint balls, etc.) mounted to a board). Get some Larue's or MGM flashers and go at it. The hardest part is getting the yardage that is desired. If there's not a range capable of an appropriately distanced match, guess we just won't have it in conjunction with the 3-Gun Nat's.

Edited November 24, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[Religious Shooter]

ETA: I don't see MOR being a "dot" game (i.e. a series of dots, paint balls, etc.) mounted to a board). Get some Larue's or MGM flashers and go at it. The hardest part is getting the yardage that is desired.

MOR is currently not a "dot" game. What I am saying is that it will HAVE to become a dot game in order for MOR style matches to be interesting with an Auto.

Normal sized Larue's and MGM flashers really are only interesting from 400 yards and up with an auto precision rifle. If you use Larue's and flashers in 300 or 200 yards bays... what's the point? That's a rehash and the same thing as USPSA rifle.

To have a decent one day match with Larue's and flashers you would need a range that would have 4 bays that are EACH 600+ yards and up. There aren't that many ranges that have that capability.

Hence the usage of "dots". How are you going to have a challenging stage with semi-auto precision rifles at 200-300 yards (i.e. the long bays where USPSA 3 gun is shot)? You will have to use "dots" instead of the Larue's and flashers.

OR of course you can smaller steel targets. But clubs have enough of a struggle to get normal sized steel.

If there's not a range capable of an appropriately distanced match, guess we just won't have it in conjunction with the 3-Gun Nat's.

How many ranges in the country will have the appropriately large bays or shooting areas? Whittington Center? Maybe Ione? Let's say 5 ranges in the entire country?

Are we going to have a new game that can only be appropriately shot at 5 ranges in the entire US?

Only way to make it work (that I can see) is the usage of dots and smaller steel.

How many times have we shot Limited & Open on the same COF ? Like every time ?

So, instead of having 20-30 shooters they get 130 shooters. 30 bolt guns and 100 AR platforms. The AR guys compete against each other and the bolt guns against each other. And if both live with the current Max 5 rounds in magazine, it might be a closer race than you think.

AR's? How is this new game going to be different from USPSA rifle given the typical ranges that we have (i.e. one 400 yard bay, two 100 yard bays, and multiple 50 yard bays)?

Can you describe a stage or two and the kind of targets that will be utilized? And again how will it be different from a straight USPSA rifle match?

Edited November 24, 2006 by Religious Shooter

[uscbigdawg]

MOR is currently not a "dot" game. What I am saying is that it will HAVE to become a dot game in order for MOR style matches to be interesting with an Auto.

If shots are a challenge for a bolt gun how are they not a challenge for an auto? Dots or steel. Doesn't matter.

Rich

Edited November 24, 2006 by uscbigdawg