Why Mor?

[P.E. Kelley]

How did MOR come to be MANUAL?

Did not this "side match" begin as run what you brung may the best man/gun win long range event?

I seem to recall Jake Kempton running a Self-Loading223 with heavy bullets then that getting nixed because of the reloading advantage.

Then the gas system being turned off and hand cycled (to the rear) and again that nixed.

If the 1898 era turn bolt is the best gun for the game should not the course of fire

prove it?

Patrick (I got gas) Kelley

[Merlin Orr]

Jeezzzz....... SS vs L10 and the IDPA rulebook not enough bullshit to argue about?

[Vlad]

If I had to make an argument about it, I'd say it is about "practical". Looking at the military and LEO world, the bolt gun is THE really long range weapon of choice. Sure, we can build semi's which will work just as well on the range, but how tuned and fiddled with are they and how would they hold under field conditions? It is my understanding that MOR grew out of the various sniper matches, and at such it mirrored the preferences of that market. Opening to "race gun" semi-autos would most likely chase away the "real" shooters because the high magazine capacity and quick reloads would put the bolt guns out of the running, independent of how well they perform in the field.

On the other hand, USPSA race guns have done a lot to improve the quality of weapons used by the military and LEO's so should we stop the evolution of long range rifles by prohibiting semi's? I hate to say this but we may need yet another division, the equivalent of open vs limited.

[tightloop]

You want a canoe paddle instead of that little spoon you are using to stir things up?????

[EricW]

Man...all I need now is a half rack of Spaten and an easy chair.

Pat,

I have an extra canoe paddle should you require it.

E

[bgary]

I'm with Pat (I think... gotta check with my handlers ;-)

I have a DPMS LR-308 that is - out of the box - every bit as accurate as my Rock-barreled AICS-chassis'd tuned and trued and cryo'd Rem-700 in .308. I am not convinced that there is *necessarily* an inherent accuracy edge to the bolt gun.

Having said that, though, the "MOR" game originated in... well, manually operated rifles. As an "equipment" rule, it is perfectly sensible to limit it to manually operated rifles. Perhaps it is time to thing about changing the *name*, and just calling it "precision" rifle, which is what we tend to call it in my neck of the woods anyway.

'Course, then there's gonna be someone who tells us there's gotta be two divisions, so the bolts don't have to shoot "against" the semi's. And so it goes.

Bruce

BTW - Jake actually put a fair amount of tweaking into that AR before the MOR match in Vegas. It was more than just fashioning a bolt handle and turning off the gas system, he had to make it work without various springs, etc. Effectively, he turned an AR pattern gun into a manually operated rifle, by design. It was *not* 'cuz the told him he had to, halfway thru the match, or anything like that. He just wanted to compete with a familiar platform, and found a way to do it inside the rules.

[EricW]

The "problem" with MOR being the only only division in which precision rifles are allowed to play is that it perpetuates this little bubble of unreality in which bolt guns are "better" than semis. And ironically, what it's done is make what should have been "Precision Rifle" division (IMO) even more expensive, because building a detachable mag bolt gun generally costs 2X of what one could build an equivalent AR-platform rifle for.

I was seriously considering shooting MOR/Sniper competitions but among other things, I could not come to terms with building a far more expensive rifle that did less simply for the sake of having another game gun. Might as well call it Blunderbuss division.

[AikiDale]

Is this a good time to say I'm for Diversity?

[ap3]

I was seriously considering shooting MOR/Sniper competitions but among other things, I could not come to terms with building a far more expensive rifle that did less simply for the sake of having another game gun. Might as well call it Blunderbuss division.

Blunderbuss, now that would be fun. Could we dress up like Pilgrims, and then have a hatchet throwing side match? Of course, the hatch throwing would have to have 2 divisions stone axe head and steel axe head.

For me it is all about the fun of shooting(with whatever the game requires) and practical has nothing to do with it. You can either play the game or not, but variety is the spice of life even in shooting games.

[Malak]

Jeezzzz....... SS vs L10 and the IDPA rulebook not enough bullshit to argue about?

+1

most Sniper use bolt guns for a reason. ICORE is for revolvers... MOR is for bolt guns.

[sfinney]

This Division was always supposed to be a place with for those with Bolt type "Tactical" rifles could play, under a USPSA rule set, IMHO...... I think the reason semi's are not allowed is then it would then basically just be a Rifle Side Match using 3-Gun rifles.

I think people just wanted an excuse / reason to play with their bolt guns in USPSA. Fair enough.

Of course, when the detachable magazines became almost required to be competitive, it kinda screwed up the intent. Now you gotta have an AICS or Badger DM floorplate to run 10 round mags or be left in the dust. Once again, SPEED beats out ACCURACY in USPSA.

Would be nice if they mandated 5 round strings max, and reloads off the clock. That would eliminate the mag advantage, and keep guns running well longer to boot. I mean who wants to burn out their custom high dollar barrels shooting 20 or 30 round stages in timed fire? Those things aren't cheap.

Edited October 11, 2006 by sfinney

[P.E. Kelley]

Most sniper/tactical/precision matches do not specify rifle type. What works best wins. What wins is what evolves. Paul had a great machine in 1898 but the modern self loader holds its own.

Did not the Cooper rifle challenge ie 20 rounds in "X" minutes @ 1000 yards get met with Dave Lauck (sp?) with a self loader?

I just want to shoot MOR matches with an inexpensive rifle that if piloted correctly can win!

No pot to stir just seems like a small pool of entrants at the MOR events could be improved if we allowed the self-loaders

[EricW]

Pat,

You of all people should know better than to challenge belief systems. Why not start another thread suggesting that most people who sell Amway do *not* become zillionaires.

[P.E. Kelley]

Pat,

You of all people should know better than to challenge belief systems. Why not start another thread suggesting that most people who sell Amway do *not* become zillionaires.

How do you think I can afford to shoot?

Really I like this posters idea;

"Would be nice if they mandated 5 round strings max, and reloads off the clock. That would eliminate the mag advantage, and keep guns running well longer to boot. I mean who wants to burn out their custom high dollar barrels shooting 20 or 30 round stages in timed fire? Those things aren't cheap."

Then turn bolts and self-loaders could run together without a decided advantage.

Patrick

[kurtm]

SOCOM has quite a few SR-25s that are used as "sniper rifles" and the Barrett semi-auto .50 is issue in the military for sniping work, so I guess that blows holes ( pun intended) into the theory that semis aren't a viable "real world" option. Anyone that thinks that ought to get out of the "real world" occasionally. Semi auto precision rifles have been in the field for quite a while now and I thought this non-sense was over with. Bruces DPMS is a great example, out of the box 1/2 Minute sniper rifle that just happens to load it'sself; and that is worse than a Remington PSS how?

I say fit a power floor to the division and run what cha brung!

[Guy Neill]

Way back when (maybe further back than I really want to remember), I advocated that practical rifle should take the form of an archery field course, and not be a "run and gun" scenario. My feel at that time was that the bolt guns were very common (read deer hunters) and that an archery field course format could promote progress in those types of guns. I stated then that animal targets should be used and that the challenge would be, not speed, but score. Problems instrumental to the courses was finding the targets at each station, and estimating range and wind.

But that was a long time ago in a galaxy far a - oops, wrong program....

Run and gun is fun, but it doesn't reflect the usage most gun owners have for their guns (again, thinking hunters).

Guy

[Religious Shooter]

Why MOR? Because I laugh at you if call the MOR match at Albany in anyway shape or form a "precision" match. At best the hardests targets were 1.5 MOA. A good number of the targets were in the realm of 100 MOA. "Manual" fits the match just fine.

BTW I'm not complaining about the target size. I'd say 70% of the field in Albany had mucho problems with the 1.5 MOA targets... including me.

If you take away the mandatory manual loading of the gun in MOR you just have the rifle portion of a 3 gun match. If you want to do that why don't you/we just have a "rifle" match like we all have "pistol" matches?

Bringing autos into MOR is akin to bringing autos to SASS matches. Someone's not getting the point.

[uscbigdawg]

RS...great signature.

I like it 'cause it's a chance (see excuse) to get better with a bolt rifle.

Rich

[kurtm]

Your right! Someone ISN'T getting the point! Most other precision type matches do, but over here in USPSA land they don't, just like 3-gun untill last year .

[uscbigdawg]

Read my mind Kurt. Some of us have been doing this for more than the last 2-3 years.

Rich

[MKuhn]

I am glad this sport is an arms race, by the way; all sports are.

The thought of leveling the playing field is like, "let's redistribute the wealth", its pinko.

In the name of love and beauty

Mell

Edited October 12, 2006 by MKuhn

[MattBurkett]

USPSA MOR is pretty ridiculous as far as the rules and scoring system works. Which is probably why there is only one match with 30 or so entrants annually. There are many sniper matches and nearly everyone is full. Hmm - looks like they got it figured out. USPSA scoring doesn't work for MOR.. You can't have a cold bore or UKD targets or a KYL etc... due to the limitations of comstock/timefire/VC.

**rant mode on**

Sorry, but, the 5 round rule is stupid. WTF did we decide to have cowboy action shooting long range competition?

**rant mode off**

It shouldn't be a bolt-gun only type of match either.

Ohhhh, ooooh, you want a level playing field? Anyone can bring anything they want. If they can't accomplish the tasks required, too bad. Bring a different gun next time! Thats how the RW works and how all the sniper matches work. *

How is that for fair?

My second favorite complaint is that people say the ranges of the targets are too far and thats hard and that it is not fair because they can't practice for it...

* Some have limitations of .338 depending on their steel they have available. Of course when a guy/girl figures out that you have to shoot weak shoulder and 90 degree side prone it or a 5 dot (moa target) drill in 20 seconds it kind of takes care of the big guns.

Note: btw they don't have calibration rules at the sniper rifle matches either. If you hit and don't knock down a Larue, the comment generally heard is to bring a bigger gun next time. :-)

[uscbigdawg]

While I don't totally agree with the use of semi-auto's if the distances aren't going to be worthwhile to make "better" accuracy firearms (if only to 'help' the shooter) then semi-autos should be allowed.

Matt brings up two big points for me. The scoring system is retarded and the limit on rounds is dumber. Until the BOD can look beyond themselves and a scoring program, that DOES NOT HAVE TO FIT EVERY PART OF THE GAME, then things won't change.

BTW, the longest range I have available to me at home in California is 200 yards. While there are longer ones, they aren't open regularly. However, that doesn't mean the courses should be dumbed down because of that. Part of the trick of shooting distance is making that little piece of lead and copper go that far. Simulated distances are not the same thing.

Rich

[bgary]

Until the BOD can look beyond themselves and a scoring program, that DOES NOT HAVE TO FIT EVERY PART OF THE GAME, then things won't change

So.... what should we change?

Bruce

[uscbigdawg]

I'd get with guys like Matt B., Mike Voigt, Bennie Cooley, Zak Smith, et. al. that shoot matches like the RiflesOnly, Snipers' Hide, etc. matches and get a concensus. There is a reason why their matches pack in the people (with both semi-auto and bolt rifles) and it's something we should look in to.

Rich