USPSA Classes

[Shooter Grrl]

The BOD established a committee to review the current classification system.  I don't know about you guys, but I've got some STRONG opinions on how to fix it (and yes, it's broke).

Here's my thoughts on the percentage breakdowns....

New shooter through 49.99% - NOVICE

-These guys NEED to be known so we can nurture them!  This is where the majority of our members get lost - something bad happens and they never return.

50.00 to 59.99  = D Class

60.00 to 69.99  = C Class

70.00 to 79.99  = B Class

80.00 to 89.99  = A Class

90.00 to 99.99  = Master

98% AND a major match "placing" gets you to Grand Master.

Placing equals top 16 at Nationals, Top 3 at any other match (for guys).  The Girls get Top 8 at the Nationals, and High Lady at any other match to make Grand Master (PLUS the 98% or higher!)

[Singlestack]

My thoughts are: it is not broken.

All your revision does is call "D" shooters something else and make it harder to make GM. Why could we not "nurture" D shooters? Why should I have to spend money to shoot in a big match to make GM?

Sorry SG, I respectfully dissagree.

[Shooter Grrl]

SS - ya'll need to go review the current class breakdown.  My version makes C class WAY shorter!  It's 40 to 60 now!  It pretty much makes ALL the classes higher than they are now.

You need to spend the money for a big match to make GM so that it MEANS something.  This takes away the whinging about the "paper" GM's.  I don't think you should be GRAND anything unless you've worked hard and earned it.

Also, with smaller breaks than what we have now, I envision this reducing ALOT of the sandbagging going on :-)

[Storm]

For the most part, I'd say it's not really broke.

But, if you're going to change it, you need to lower the bar, not raise it. At least, for everything other than GM. I do think GM should mean something and be earned.

If you look at the breakdown of shooters in a class, most shooters are in C class. Then B, then D. I'd be more concerned about splitting the bottom portion of the class structure up & leaving the top alone. I know a lot of folks get frustrated at Area matches because there are so many folks in B and C class that it's very hard to place in your class.

So, "if" I were restructuring classes I'd do something more like:

Novice:  00.000% - 29.999%

D Class: 30.000% - 49.999%

C Class: 50.000% - 64.999%

B Class: 65.000% - 74.999%

A Class: 75.000% - 84.999%

M Class: 85.000% - 94.999%

GM Class: 95.000% -100.000% and "placement" in an Area or Nationals match.

One of the reasons IDPA is popular is because the curve is a little lower. If you want to attract average shooters to USPSA you need to remember that most folks are in that lower end of the curve, not the high end.

So, sorry SG, but I have to disagree too. Your proposal would alienate new and average shooters. Raising the bar will not nurture them.

As far as eliminating sandbagging goes, there are other ways. For example, if you place 5% above your class in an Area match you should get bumped to the class you scored in. (Yes, this would allow someone in D class to be bumped to A class if they shot an A class score.)

[sfinney]

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Quote: from Storm on 4:56 pm on Mar. 7, 2002

As far as eliminating sandbagging goes, there are other ways. For example, if you place 5% above your class in an Area match you should get bumped to the class you scored in. (Yes, this would allow someone in D class to be bumped to A class if they shot an A class score.)

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Now that I like.... if your'e going to try position yourself for winning prizes by sandbagging, at least this way you only get one shot at it....

I also agree that there are many "average" shooters who will never break the 50% mark, who are definitely NOT "Novices"..... raising the bar would definitely alienate those guys....  I'd vote for more actively enforcing the classes we have now  

[Shooter Grrl]

I feel that one of the problems with the current setup is the time it takes to progress a class... so if the breakdown for "moving up" is at 10% instead of 15 or 20, then I think less shooters would get frustrated with the system because they never move up.  

[Ron Ankeny]

Shooter Grrl:

You are gonna generate some heat on this one. :-)

[Chriss Grube]

I don't think it is the not moving up that is the problem. They move up faster and then still get crushed. I think people will either accept their ability or get discouraged and leave. I think a lot of the people that leave do so because they come in expecting to win then they go to a match and get slaughtered. The problem I see with the classification system is not so much USPSA's fault but the MD and the slow posting of scores. You can be advancing at a pace which outclasses the system. The problem is the scores don't get posted and you spend an extra season sitting in a lower class. People get tired of you crushing them and blame you for sandbagging. I was stuck in C all last seaon. The Area 8 win finally was posted around December. I was a prime example, I went to nationals and zeroed a 135 point stage and still took second in my class. I lost by 39 points. I should have been up in B but I was caught in the paperwork delay. In the computer age why not let the MD post the classification scores right to the database. I know the money issue will come up so set up a pay pal account so the head office gets the money. This way the shooter gets the scores without a 6 month delay. Now they just send the check and the paper work so what would be the difference? I think the percentages are just about right as they now stand. If you change them down you have the same people shooting the same scores it's just that now they are on paper an A or M.  I guess if somebody wants to be a M or GM on paper ok, they are still going to get beat by the real M or GM. I think we need to look at how people perform in big matches not just the classifiers. I know lots of shooters that can shoot classifiers all day long, then they go to  the big match and get killed.

[bgary]

Two different threads:

As far as classification break-points go, I'm not sure any scheme is measurably better than another.  lets face it, all the numbers are arbitrary - they feel like they mean something, but all they are is labels we've chosen to stick on a certain points.  

I worry more about the various DISincentives to improvement we have institutionalized.  I like to improve at whatever I do - I like to measure my progress towards a goal, so I was *thrilled*, for example, when I finally got myself into B class last year.  But it is painfully obvious to me that others view the class breakpoints as ceilings - their goal is to *avoid* going over a threshold.  We need to find a way to remove those motivators.  Some ideas on that can be found over in the "pro vs amateur" forum.  But, fundamentally, I don't think the class system is broken.  I think we *have* allowed too many ways to manipulate it, and we need to close some of those loopholes so that people can't falsely inflate (or deflate their class, and/or so that their class reflects their ability reasonably accurately.

Second, nothing formal to announce, but rumor has it that work is being done to make it so that results can be sent directly from EZWinScore to USPSA, thus (hopefully) reducing the time between the match and the date your scores show up in your average.  There has also been some talk about changing the system so that it is a real-time running average, rather than a snap-shot generated every month on the 10th.  That has some implications and complexities, but i we think through it well, we should be able to come up with something that works.  Certainly, there is sufficienc computer power available to do something like that (there wasn't when the class system was started)

bruce

bruce.gary@verizon.net

[Storm]

Chriss - I agree about the paperwork not being sent in a timely matter. I don't see why the paperwork for an Area match cannot be sent in electronically within a week of the match. I can think of several cases over the past couple of years where folks were still in their old class for a month or several months after they placed 1st or 2nd in an Area match. If they can post the results to the USPSA webpage in a day, why can't they upload the results for the next classification run too?

If you'd combine timely updates with some sort of sandbag prevention method like the 5% above method I mentioned earlier, I think most of classication issues go away. But, if you do change the percentages for classes, you need to even out the bottom not the top.

SG - I understand the intent of the 10% method. But, I just don't think raising the bar at the bottom will encourage anyone.

I really don't think the class breakdowns are the problem. I think lack of timely results and lack of sandbagging prevention are much more important issues.

[Storm]

Bruce-Good to hear about the possible EZWinScore updates.

[Shooter Grrl]

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You are gonna generate some heat on this one. :-)

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 I don't mind the heat!  And honestly, I'm open to changing my mind... but I DID want the discussion to get started

[PaulW]

Shooter Grrl Wrote:You need to spend the money for a big match to make GM so that it MEANS something.  This takes away the whinging about the "paper" GM's.  I don't think you should be GRAND anything unless you've worked hard and earned it.

I've never won a big match, does that mean I have not worked hard and earned it?  I would beg to differ!!

[jhgtyre]

I don't think anyone is intentionally disparaging those who make GM and have the ability to shoot "GM level" scores during a match.  The whole "paper GM" slur seems to be leveled at those who might hold a GM card but can't exhibit that level of ability during matches.  

-jhgtyre

[PaulW]

Jhgtyre wrote:I don't think anyone is intentionally disparaging those who make GM and have the ability to shoot "GM level" scores during a match.

Ok, so what you are saying is you have to shoot GM scores at matches (assuming you are meaning major matches) in order to validate being a GM?  Well if you don't your considered a "paper GM".  Hmmm, I wonder how many paper M,A,B,C,&D class shooters we would have then.  Lets just call them all paper classes and be done with it!!  I have worked my ass off to get to the level I am at.  I have "NEVER" re-shot classifers, not sent a classifier in because it was bad or anything close to that.  I shoot, shoot the best I can, and let the computer do the calculations.  I earned every bit of it.  Through tough work, dedication and severe determination to be competitive.  I say the hell with the classes lets shoot straight up.  I hope, someday, through much,much more practice, work and fine tuning I will be able to do well at a "major match".  You guys seem to think the a GM is a walking god.  That b#$llS%$t.  We are just normal people playing a game the best we can.  I put my pants on the same way as TGO, TJ,JB and all the others (it just may take me a little longer..hehe).

[Shooter Grrl]

Whoa - Paul, take a chill pill!  I NEVER said that YOU didn't work hard to get where you are now.

I DID SAY that I believe in order to have the Title of Grand Master, that one has to win a big match.  Other than that, you get to be called Master.

And IMHO, this differentiation is so that the top title REALLY means something - not just to those that have it, but to those that WANT it, and also to those outside of the sport (ie INDUSTRY and SPONSORS!)

[jhgtyre]

I didn't intend to imply major matches.  I am talking about local matches as well.  I (and I would hope everyone here) realize that every shooter regardless of ranking has good days and bad.  I get to see a lot of GM's shoot and I get to see them screw up too.  I would never say that meant they were poseurs.  I was simply pointing out that not winning a match shouldn't reflect that someone hadn't earned a GM card but that rarely if ever shooting GM type scores during a match might.  You are right the same could be said of any class.  

As far as a "walking god" goes; I tend to think everyone is the same only different.

[PaulW]

It's amazes me what a "title" can do to people.  And I don't just mean the title bearer.  Since I have made GM (only a few weeks) people have really changed around me.  People want lessons, they want to all shoot on the same squad, they want to pick my brain etc. etc.  Funny thing is I have not changed or changed anything that I have been trying to teach them for months.  But now they want to listen, funny eh?  I really just don't get why people want to downgrade those who have made it to GM by telling them they aren't worth the title because they have not won a big match.  I'll play by the rules, whatever they may be.  And I can sleep soundly at night knowing that I made it to this level honestly and through much work.  And I don't give a rats ass if you want to call it a paper GM or anything else.  Maybe someday I'll win that big match and not have to be bothered by it, cause honestly, I don't care what anyone else really thinks.  

[Ron Ankeny]

Paul:

Ya know, I think I have read every one of your posts since the forum began. Near as I can tell, you are a squared away, straight up guy. You have your act together.

Personally, I think it is way cool that you made GM and I figure you earned it. To get there, you had to shoot the score and that's the way it is. I don't care if you do well in matches or not.

I have been teaching for over 20 years and in that time I have continued to witness an age old truth. It is easier for people to drag someone who excels down to their level than to rise to excellence. Congrats on making GM and like grandpa said, "Don't let the &*1@" drag you down".

[PaulW]

Ron....Thank You, Thank You very much.  Here is an awesome story.  I just got home from a local match.  Good turn out as we are all getting ready for the Florida State Match next weekend.  This gentleman came up to me(He goes by Seargent Rock on here) intriduced himself and explained he has been reading the forums and we had a very nice discussion regarding the whole papaer GM thing.  He in a nutshell said exactly what you just said.  I hope my previous post did not sound like I was upset or offended, I was not.  I actually love the passion people have on here about shooting.  I consider myself a "Student of the game", and love to see people want to improve.  One of the local shooters today wanted to squad with so I could give him some pointers.  It was my pleasure to help and I will always be willing to teach someone who wants to learn.  And shooter Grrl I hope I was not overly brash and if I was I do appologize.  I am a die hard competitor and very passionate about my shooting, and sometime come across rather strong.  DVC all the way!!

[Sgt Rock]

    First I want to say that I started shooting IPSC in the early 80's, it was then a different game: but it was still a game.  There was no gun restrictions for class as there are today.  I believe we will never be entirely perfect, so as to make everyone of our shooting members happy.  

           However, it is still the best game going.

    I had the pleasure of meeting Paul today, I also had the pleasure of shooting a couple of stages with him.  Paul is truley a gamer, a intensive competitor, a fellow competitor who will tirelessly give advice and recommendations, and lastly one of the best reperesentatives of our sport I have seen since my return from a  16 year absence from the sport.    

   As to a seperate class for pro-shooters.  I will leave that to the powers to be.  In my opinion a "Pro-shooter" is one that derives monetary gain, the same as any Olympic athelete.  True all other sports have two catagories: Bass-fishing, bowling and a myrid of other team sports.  

   Classes, seems to be fine the way it is.  I might never achieve what Paul has, but I damn sure will try.  I know, my single stack can not compete on the same level as an open gun: however, it is my choice and I can switch anytime I wish.

 

                     My main competitor is myself.

    The one constant I have observed since my return is that those who are at the top levels, make shooting look "easy."  Ever notice the smile at the end of the run?

[TravisT]

(Edited by TravisT at 6:27 pm on June 11, 2002)

[shred]

We've been playing with the idea of a 'novice' class for our local man-on-man pin-shoots.  The idea is that once you win novice, you get kicked out to play with everybody.  That might work at a club level.

[kbear38S]

There already is a novice class, it's D.

[shred]

Naah.. there are people in D that ought to be there.. talked to one today that's been in D for almost a decade.    What I'm talking about for Novice is for somebody that's brand new to the sport and doesn't have everything ingrained yet.   Give them a 'mentor' to help them out the first few matches until they get classified wherever they belong (and "U", as-is doesn't cut it either)