Sean Gaines Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I have heard this saying quite a few times, and don't quite understand how this is true. Would like to hear from people on how this works, or if it works, or is it just a mental thing? Thanks in advance PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Watching the dot will show you a lot of movement that is not apparent with iron sights. Shooting Open and refininig the ability to hold the gun steady translates to improving shooting the Limited gun later. At least I've noticed this in dry fire between iron sights and dots. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Guy's spot on - but it's not just about refining your ability to steady and support the gun, etc. The dot can help you learn to follow the movement of a sight in ways that aren't always as easy to pick up with irons. The dot is also more demanding in terms of being pure on your draw, grip, index, etc - and that translates to quicker aquisition of sights in Limited, as well. On the flip side, Limited will teach you visual patience in a way that will be harder to learn with Open (for me, anway - it's easier for me to go into "unfocused hose" mode with a dot in front of me...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) +1 on what Guy said. Also consider that whenever you are shooting a limited you are working very hard on sight alignment/focus in 3 planes etc. By adding a dot you take away the need to move your focus back and forth. This allows you a larger margin to concentrate on another skill (trigger control, transition, shot calling, etc. etc). What I am trying to say is it is easier to isolate skills with the open gun than on the limited gun. I only started shooting two years ago. After about 8 mos I knew that wanted to take it very seriously. I asked a few of the big instructors(Todd Jarrett, Max and Travis, Matt Burkett) about this issue and it was very largely unanimous on the advice you have heard. I had an open gun built instead of a limited gun and so far I think it is a valid theory. I will say that it also takes the same discipline to train and see the gains, not just using the dot as a go faster crutch. Good luck, Craig Edited July 19, 2006 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwmiket Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 +1 on the above.....just took a class from Max M. and he recommended it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinMike Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I bought one of those expensive "training aids" this year. I'm not sure I like shooting open, but it definitely points out flaws in my presentation of the gun. If you don't get a good draw, you search for the dot and that (to me anyway) takes more time to correct than with a limited gun. I find it rather unforgiving. I shot production at the last match though and thought I did better than normal. There's absolutely something to this open thing. If you have the means, give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 If you are truly looking to work on improvement and would like to continue in limited it does not take a full on open gun. Buy a Cmore alchin mount and put it on your gun. You will have the benefits of dot learning without the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 If you are truly looking to work on improvement and would like to continue in limited it does not take a full on open gun. Buy a Cmore alchin mount and put it on your gun. You will have the benefits of dot learning without the cost. Whuuuttttt? Not spend more $ than I have to? J/K. Great Idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Yeah, I usually bypass that silly plan as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 This begs the question of how long to shoot/practice with the open gun, then go back to the limited gun, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I took a class this spring with Ron Avery and I spoke about that with him. I am sitting right on the cusp of b/a right now and asked him when to start transitioning. His suggestion was sometime after making master start cross training in earnest (I still shoot limited and production once in a while). He also went on to say that although his focus is completely on shooting limited he still shoots his open gun at a bout a 1/5 ratio in an effort to take advantage of what it has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I took a class this spring with Ron Avery and I spoke about that with him. I am sitting right on the cusp of b/a right now and asked him when to start transitioning. His suggestion was sometime after making master start cross training in earnest (I still shoot limited and production once in a while). He also went on to say that although his focus is completely on shooting limited he still shoots his open gun at a bout a 1/5 ratio in an effort to take advantage of what it has to offer. So this might be something that perhaps an A or above should work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The other part of Open is the magazine capacity. Not having to reload as often allows the shooter to concentrate on other aspects of the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 So this might be something that perhaps an A or above should work on. No not at all. The information that I received was very much geared to the idea that the less skilled you were the faster the open gun would help you up the learning curve. It was Ron's suggestion that at the time your skills with the open gun reached M class that it was his opinion to start a bringing the limited guns back into the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtipping Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 It's funny, i hear the reverse argument from people sometimes. I shoot Open myself, and sometimes people tell me "I might shoot Open one day, but i prefer to shoot production/standard etc and get good at a 'proper gun' first, when you shoot Open first you just learn to use the dot and can't go back and shoot with irons". Im a relative newb, first picked up a gun 18 months ago. Shot a H&K for a while when i trained in IPSC, after about 6 months i started using a second-hand para-framed open gun lent to me, and im still using it now. However, after shooting that gun exclusively for about 3-4 months, i shot a few stages one day with a friend's STI Edge, and couldn't believe how easily the sights were tracking for me. From the draw, those irons were right there and lined up, and kept falling right back into place. The improvement over my handling of the H&K was enormous. I'm sure simple trigger time accounts for some of the improvement, but even so. Shooting with a 'cheaters dot' hardly seems to make it difficult to go back to irons, and i do believe it can help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 (edited) +1 on the above.....just took a class from Max M. and he recommended it. Whatchoo waiting on mikey? Do it! shooting limited after shooting open is kinda nice, things seem to happen in slow motion. recoil, sights lift, all slower than open. Do whatever you can to shoot open, if that means telling yourself it will make you a better limited shooter, DO it. I bought my first open gun last year before the nationals, I shot limited there. This year i have no desire to shoot any big match in limited... I might start Looking back and shoot limited more when i get the M card in open. Im right on the edge of A in open already, and already am a A in limited and limited 10. I can honestly say limited classifiers are easier than shootingthem in open...at least where the national percentage comes into play Harmon Edited July 24, 2006 by Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 dave, +1 on the unfocused hose mode with the dot...much easier to do that(and still get some form of hits). if tried with a limited gun it would be like this: delta, mike, alpha, delta, charlie, mike...ect. either strategy isnt one you would want to employ to win a match Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azone41 Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) I shoot open 100% of the time. Once a year we have the limited sectional and I break out my STI limited gun. I take it out and practice 2 or 3 times before the match. I took it out the other day and I was running the texas star in 5 shots almost as fast as I can with my open gun. When I draw the sights are just lined up everytime , im sure this is because you have to draw an open gun perfectly for the dot to be lined up. My splits are not as close with the limited but I get the hits and it's not the split that saves you time it the transition between targets. Most limited shooters give the open guys crap about the cheater dot but who wants to fly a prop aircraft when you can drive an F-15 Edited July 25, 2006 by Azone41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter-Booth-A43995 Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I myself have started to shoot open not to long ago and it has steady started raising my scores in both limited in open from low B class to high Aclass ,almost to Master class . Open class kinda pushes you to shoot fast and acurate and make you belive in yourself as a shooter. I started to shoot long shots about as fast as close with the belief that i got that target and it had at least an AC. That ,at least for me, moves on to my limited gun aswell. I mean the big GMs that said that this game is about 90% memtal and 10% other stuff were right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f250sd Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 After shooting limited for a while, I just got an open gun. I'll let you know how it goes. But just after dry firing the open gun and then switching back to the limited, I picked up the sights faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 I feel a bit glum when I read this thread, and others like it, because I *don't* have an Open gun, and I, too, would like to be a better Limited shooter... If you don't otherwise care much about shooting a dot-gun, it seems like a pretty big detour, no? From reading the various posts, it makes sense to me that a year or so shooting Open can really improve Ltd performance. But then I've read the same thing about Production -- ie, shoot Production for a while, and notice how it improves your overall skill, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Boo. I think production and open improve your game in vastly different areas. Open improes your shooting on the move, your movement through the COF with less focus on your sights and calling the shot (because it's easier) Production improves your focus on points, your position shooting, your reloads and the like. Also stage beak down and analasys. if you don't have/can't afford a dot gun, put a J-point on your limited gun for a while.. maybe the off season, they replace bo-mar's very nicely. while not the top of the line C-more set up it still gives the benefits. and 20 rounds of ammo is plenty. the dot is what makes open so much easier the ports more bullets are icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I think the emphasis is just different in Open than it is in Limited... If you can remember to turn on the dot sight and can make a decent draw, and find the dot, and your big stick works..the rest is anticlimatic...flat shooting, soft, and lots of capacity...focus is on transitions, splits and movement... Limited you can get away with a less than perfect grip as you draw while still finding the sights...that is why lots of Limited/Production/L-10 and SS shooters have a faster draw and first shot than Open shooters... but then you have to couple the aspect of reloading at the proper place, driving the gun/riding the sights, and still have the same concerns as the Open guys with movement, splits and transitions...focus is on more things than Open.. I won;t go as far as saying Open is easier, but I think the progression is faster shooting Open than Limited given the same talent and work ethic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontactical Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 The day I got my first open gun I did a bunch of dry fire with it, and I was getting a lot of dot wobble when I pulled the trigger. As soon as I tightened my weak hand grip, the amount of dot wobble that I got when I pulled the trigger was decreased by 30%. The dot showed me immediately that I was undergripping with my weak hand, and years of shooting limited hadnt made it apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjbine Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 In the quest to become a better shooter, this thread is an eye opener. Keep it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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