AFDavis11 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I'd like to get better, but I have to admit at this point I'm not sure how. I have been trying to push speed a little lately and I'm seeing my scores go down (seemingly). So I assume the first thing everyone will say, and rather flippantly I would assume is, "Practice". Ok, so first question is "Practice what?" Reloading seems like an easy answer, grip, draw . . . ok anything else? Here are a few areas of my game that I'm not all that happy with. I'm not sure, or settled yet on a reloading method. How did you guys decide what was best? Sometimes when I reload I feel like I get a little "lost". One, I find myself looking for the next moonclip. Do you guys pull from a specific order on your belt? Second, my eyes return to the array of targets and I'm not sure where I was. I find this happens less when I reload keeping the gun in my strong hand (no idea why). I find the hand switch method faster, yet maybe overall it may be more important NOT to use that method. I find myself taking my time and hitting targets well and sometimes I run at the targets like a banshy and do ok too. Any thoughts on which approach is better. I know its a stupid question but can you answer this . . . do you feel like your hurrying when you run a stage or do you feel like your moving smoothly and trying to use economy of motion? My thoughts at this point are to keep running like a madman at the stages and see what happens for the rest of the year.... Did any of you practice pulling the trigger faster on targets. I don't know whether there really is time to be gained actually shooting the targets or whether time benefits are more achievable moving between arrays. In other words, when you started out what did you focus on more? I have a static range to practice at so no drawing, moving, weaving allowed. Would pulling the trigger faster with live rounds make sense, say at some distance? Do you guys feel that in general the key to improving (in USPSA) is speed. I.E. is my interpretation of speed being important accurate for a revolver shooter. Sometimes it hits me that slowing down and hitting 6 steel targets is probably A LOT better than an attack run and one reload. I have JM's video and some things seem odd to me...maybe its just cuz I'm new; like for instance, his view that the cylinder HAS to be turning before you get on target. Does anybody actually do that? Besides the fact that I would be DQ'd in a match for touching my trigger on the move does anyone really make an attempt to get their cylinder moving before they are on target as a method of saving time? He says "Don't ever run at the trigger", so do you guys pull smoothly or attack (or run smoothly really fast? LOL). Well, you get the drift of the thread . . . how did you get better? Both specifically with a revolver and in general? At the SummerBlast I wasn't able to watch most of you guys shoot so I haven't much reference. I only get to shoot with one other revolver guy on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alellis Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Altho I am hardly qualified I was forming an answer to your post in my head. That was untill I saw that you have Jerrys video. I don't think I can tell you anything better than he can. I am not very fast but I am a whole lot faster than I was. The things that seemed to make a difference to me were 1. Take the time to get a proper grip on the gun before it leaves the holster. 2. Take the time to get a proper grip with your weak hand as well (it really dosen't take long) 3. Go straight to the target (not past it) 4. Have the cylinder moving before you get to the target and as far as possible keep it moving during transitions. 5. Practise. If you do 20 reloads, draws, whatever its amazing how much difference there is between the first and the last. al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I'd like to get better, but I have to admit at this point I'm not sure how. I have been trying to push speed a little lately and I'm seeing my scores go down (seemingly). So I assume the first thing everyone will say, and rather flippantly I would assume is, "Practice". Ok, so first question is "Practice what?" Reloading seems like an easy answer, grip, draw . . . ok anything else? Practicing reloads is a great exercise, because you will automaically practice target presentation (high ready). This will make you faster in engaging targets from any position. Practice transitions, high ready to target, draws. If you want a list of good exercises, try Steve Anderson's book. Saul Kirsch's first book is also great for this. He also has some great exercises you can do on a range (also for ranges like yours). Here are a few areas of my game that I'm not all that happy with. I'm not sure, or settled yet on a reloading method. How did you guys decide what was best? I just picked one. Trust me when I say that it doesn't matter which one you pick. Both have their specific (dis)advantages. Pick one way and practice it. Sometimes when I reload I feel like I get a little "lost". One, I find myself looking for the next moonclip. Looking for the clip is good! That's the key to a fast reload.Do you guys pull from a specific order on your belt? Not really. I normally start somewhere in the middle. When you look for the clip, you can just pick the one you see first. Practice your reloads and you will become so fast at this that it doesn't matter anymore. I am as fast from my middle holder as from the one on my hip. Second, my eyes return to the array of targets and I'm not sure where I was. I find this happens less when I reload keeping the gun in my strong hand (no idea why). I find the hand switch method faster, yet maybe overall it may be more important NOT to use that method. I'm pretty sure this will go away with practice. I think the reason you are not lost when you keep the revolver in the strong hand is because you also keep it alligned to the targets when you reload that way. I find myself taking my time and hitting targets well and sometimes I run at the targets like a banshy and do ok too. Any thoughts on which approach is better. Hitting the targets is what all shooting sports are all about. Hitting them fast always takes the backseat. Work on shooting good points and try to stretch the speed limits a little. If you feel you are out of control, take a step back. I know its a stupid question but can you answer this . . . do you feel like your hurrying when you run a stage or do you feel like your moving smoothly and trying to use economy of motion? My thoughts at this point are to keep running like a madman at the stages and see what happens for the rest of the year.... That is actually a very good question. When I shoot my best, I feel I'm very smooth and very economic. The only times I just haul ass, is when I have to run far. Feeling I'm in a hurry is the one thing I'm trying to eliminate ever since I started shooting Did any of you practice pulling the trigger faster on targets. Yes, a lot My splits still suck I don't know whether there really is time to be gained actually shooting the targets or whether time benefits are more achievable moving between arrays. In other words, when you started out what did you focus on more? I have a static range to practice at so no drawing, moving, weaving allowed. Would pulling the trigger faster with live rounds make sense, say at some distance? Well, of course it is good to hit the targets as fast as possible. As long as you hit them. I did a lot of speed drills on various targets. I found that speed drills on difficult targets have the best effect. Throw in some reloads while you're at it. Like, if you shoot a 6 shot Bill drill, reload at the end, just to practice reloading a wheelgun after you shot it (which is different from dry fire reloads). You don't have to shoot the gun after the reload. Do you guys feel that in general the key to improving (in USPSA) is speed. No way. Points are everything. Just don't be too slow. I.E. is my interpretation of speed being important accurate for a revolver shooter. Sometimes it hits me that slowing down and hitting 6 steel targets is probably A LOT better than an attack run and one reload. Good example. Speed is of course important, but try to approach speed from the side of getting good points, and not from the "being fast side". By that I mean, see how fast you can shoot very good points, instead of seeing if you can shoot some points by being very fast. I have JM's video and some things seem odd to me...maybe its just cuz I'm new; like for instance, his view that the cylinder HAS to be turning before you get on target. Does anybody actually do that? Definately, but not on every target. You have to know your gun to do this though. Big time saver on transitions. Practice transitions and you will start doing it automatically. Besides the fact that I would be DQ'd in a match for touching my trigger on the move does anyone really make an attempt to get their cylinder moving before they are on target as a method of saving time? Don't pull the trigger while you are actually moving! just as you move to the next target. Startout with a little pull (bareley moving the trigger, but applying pressure) and see if you like it. If you do, work your way up.He says "Don't ever run at the trigger", so do you guys pull smoothly or attack (or run smoothly really fast? LOL). Well, since Jerry is the king of revolver splits, I will not saya nything about this. My splits are bad. I ride the trigger, but I'm also pretty agressive on the pull. Well, you get the drift of the thread . . . how did you get better? Both specifically with a revolver and in general? I practiced a lot, and looked for stuff to read/watch about shooting. hanging out here also shaved off a few decades of the Ol' Learning Curve At the SummerBlast I wasn't able to watch most of you guys shoot so I haven't much reference. I only get to shoot with one other revolver guy on occasion. Try to shoot against autoloaders that are getting the same kind of HF as you if you have no competition. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Read through what alellis and Spook have to say, several times. There is a lot of information there. One thing I would mention is the use of a timer during practice. A lot of folks don't have one and without this little tool there is no way to accurately gauge where your are, how you are improving, and what needs to be worked on. An couple of examples: -First shot on target from the holster, A zone hits at ~10 yds. -Two shots on target from the holster, A-zone hits at ~ 10 yds. And it really is necessary to have a timer to determine which type of reload works best for you. For a lot of folks the border shift feels good but putting it on the clock just about always shows which is faster(and doesn't tend to break the 180) Try each of the two types maybe 50 times each. Write down the actual times and make your decision about which type of reload works based on the actual time. What feels good may not be fast. What feels fast may not be fast. What you are the most comfortable with right now may not be what is fast and smooth for you. If you already have a timer, write your times on paper. Study them. The clock will tell you when you are improving, no matter how it "feels". I don't know how long you have shot revo in IPSC or ICORE but the more you shoot the more you will see what Jerry talkes about and shows in the video. There is a lot more there than is noticable in the first dozen or so viewings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 +1 on the timer! The only way to be sure your way is the right way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 All good recommendations. I would add one more. Find another Revo shooter to practice with or shoot with in matches. You will find that you will push each other, in a good way, and both will benefit. I think I have gotten a bit better shooting with Double Action and Walter Mitty, from Oklahoma and Mike Luttrell in Arkansas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Short answer on keeping the trigger moving is "Mental Anticipation". If you think of stroking the trigger instead of slapping it, you'll be on the right track. The trick is to get the stroke started before the target, then finishing the stroke on the target right when your sights line up. The rest is practice, pick what you feel best with and practice it. But don't hesitate to push yourself, even if you feel uncomfortable. You may learn something. Not all of us have the luxury of tough competition like the Luttrell's, Waltermitty, Bubber and DA. But if you can find it, it helps greatly. Plus it really increases the fun factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Mike Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I would highly recommend Mr. Anderson's book. The dry fire drills in there are fantastic, and keeping a record of your improvement is a great tool as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Hey Al, It was a real pleasure meeting and having dinner with you at the Summer Blast...... Now on to the good stuff........Getting better.. First....make "quality" time to dry fire practice. And always REINFORCE your dry fire movements with live fire. Do them exactly the same. Second....the most important thing at this point in your quest is to solidify your "draw" and "reload" techniques. Find what works best and repeat it till your hands fall off. It is absolutley necessary that these movements become second nature. With out it, you'll will spend too much thinking rather than reacting. Muscle memory will save alot of time during a COF with out even pulling the trigger. A shot timer is a must....You need to measure improvement... Third....breaking the shot. As mentioned by others above, keeping the trigger moving is one of those necessary evils of revo shooting. This will come with practice, start slow and in control. Keeping the trigger moving is about rhythm and timing. Anticipating the sight picture while starting/rolling the trigger from shot-to-shot.......Thats the fun part. When it starts coming to together you wont even realize it. Now your on auto pilot....... Danbagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hey Al,It was a real pleasure meeting and having dinner with you at the Summer Blast...... Now on to the good stuff........Getting better.. First....make "quality" time to dry fire practice. And always REINFORCE your dry fire movements with live fire. Do them exactly the same. Second....the most important thing at this point in your quest is to solidify your "draw" and "reload" techniques. Find what works best and repeat it till your hands fall off. It is absolutley necessary that these movements become second nature. With out it, you'll will spend too much thinking rather than reacting. Muscle memory will save alot of time during a COF with out even pulling the trigger. A shot timer is a must....You need to measure improvement... Third....breaking the shot. As mentioned by others above, keeping the trigger moving is one of those necessary evils of revo shooting. This will come with practice, start slow and in control. Keeping the trigger moving is about rhythm and timing. Anticipating the sight picture while starting/rolling the trigger from shot-to-shot.......Thats the fun part. When it starts coming to together you wont even realize it. Now your on auto pilot....... Danbagger DryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfire When you dry fire, you become aware of what the front sight does thru the trigger stroke. Helps to explain why it is more difficult to call shots with a revo. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 DryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireDryfireWhen you dry fire, you become aware of what the front sight does thru the trigger stroke. Helps to explain why it is more difficult to call shots with a revo. Dave Though.. D.Carden did just this and well.. he wore out his 625 just before a Major match.. Dry Fire is a big part of the process. Though once you reach a certain level (pretty high level) dry fire is not so much a part of it, and maintaining your level is about live practice and matches against people of a bit higher level then you. Economy of motion is as important as other divisions since it takes so much more motion to fire it proficiently. I'm lucky to have several high level shooters in my ICORE and USPSA clubs. I was lucky enough to be able to take a live class from Jerry, and I'm still implementing a lot of the things he showed us. One way I've found to increase the speeds on splits is bill drills. 10 yards, 1 target, 2 target, 3 targets set with a par time. The Plate rack can also be used for this kind of thing.. transitioning while keeping the trigger moving will decrease your times considerably. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Danbagger I have to question your words, "Auto-Pilot"? Can't we come up with something better? On a Roll, rolling thru but Auto-Pilot? Seriously Dan says it all, Dryfire is good, but you have to have live fire. I kind of started back in with a Revo due to the fact I could practice Dryfiring inside during the winter. But, I've come to realize that Live Fire is more important with a Revo than an Auto. But I can still practice Reloads well enough. Dave's right about calling your shots, I've even seen JM drop a shot and mutter about where it went. On Reloads: I try to start taking my reloads from the holders closest to the gun and work CCW. But half the time I don't know where they come from. I think it's better to grab them where your hand falls depending on body position. I don't think I ever really look at the holder. I try to see it peripherally, I try to see the cylinder. But it all happens so fast you just catch glimpses, kind of like the sight picture on a fast course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Danbagger I have to question your words, "Auto-Pilot"? Can't we come up with something better? On a Roll, rolling thru but Auto-Pilot? Ooops.......You got me on that one Dave....Wrong arena to be using the "Auto" word.... 20 lashes for the Danbagger.....I beg for forgiveness...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted July 18, 2006 Author Share Posted July 18, 2006 (edited) Dan, It was a pleasure meeting you too...hopefully we'll meet again. Its neat having a tightknit group. Guys, Thanx, lots of info to digest. Much appreciated. Edited July 18, 2006 by AFDavis11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8ring Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 I can add little to what the others have said. I'm a C shooter but here are my observations. For me, the critical starting point is finding a grip and stance that is repeatable and allows the front sight to return exactly between the rear sight each time and lets you keep the same grip through all six shots. If you're a klutz like me, you can use some little ammo finding this point. Once you find that point, dry fire a lot. I dry fire at three small bullseye targets on the garage wall. Put two shots on each with exactly the same time between shots. Jerry M's advice to keep the cylinder turning at all times is important because it makes you more accurate. (For me, "running at" the trigger ruins accuracy.) You can do this with confidence if you know your front sight will return to the same place in time for the second shot on paper targets and that you will get the gun on the next target while the cylinder is turning. Think of the trigger as the metronome and your eyes keep up with the trigger. (On steel plates I revert to the "get sight picture - pull trigger" sequence.) I reload with my left hand for two reasons. First, I don't have to take my strong hand off the gun. When I get a good grip out of the holster, I keep it for the entire stage. Second, the muzzle is always pointed downrange with this technique. No RO will holler "muzzle" at you when reloading righthanded if, in your haste, the skyward pointing muzzle drifts near or slightly past the vertical 180. It is also very easy to cross the 180 using the right hand technique if you are facing targets on the left side of berm as you reload. Enjoy your practice. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 You're forgiven Danbagger, probably handled too much tupperware lately. You do know the teflon in that stuff will alter your physiology. I try to practice both techniques while sitting on the couch, watching TV (or the wife mow the yard thru my picture window, lord I know I'm a lucky SOB) and picking the dummy clip up from off of the cat on my lap. So if you see me hesitate during a reload at a match, it's cause I'm waiting for the cat to shift the clip (sometimes takes a second to realize there's no cat). The beauty of this "Training" method is when I flip up the muzzle, on weak hand reloads, if it goes past 180 the butt hits the cat's head and she claws the bejesus out of my leg. Ah, the life of an IPSC Revolverlero! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Danbagger I have to question your words, "Auto-Pilot"? Can't we come up with something better? On a Roll, rolling thru but Auto-Pilot? Ooops.......You got me on that one Dave....Wrong arena to be using the "Auto" word.... 20 lashes for the Danbagger.....I beg for forgiveness...... Why give you what you crave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Danbagger I have to question your words, "Auto-Pilot"? Can't we come up with something better? On a Roll, rolling thru but Auto-Pilot? Ooops.......You got me on that one Dave....Wrong arena to be using the "Auto" word.... 20 lashes for the Danbagger.....I beg for forgiveness...... Why give you what you crave? But Hearthco, Danbagger's from Califorina, never know whether he'd really want "forgiveness" or the "lash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerosigns Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 +1 on Steve Andersons book. And then match it up with Matt Burketts Dry Fire Trainer on his website. http://mattburkett.com/files/flashfiles/dryfiredraw.html It is a huge help to let you dryfire each day. It has changeable targets, a timer, no shoots. I will caution you though it's tough to see the screen after you paste the targets. Good Luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted July 26, 2006 Share Posted July 26, 2006 AFDavis, I agree with the Anderson Dry fire book.........Dry fire and wheelguns go hand in hand. Be patient with yourself, but true to yourself. And ask as many questions as needed. When I started there was no one else to ask, so consider yourself lucky. SAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 "At the SummerBlast I wasn't able to watch most of you guys shoot so I haven't much reference. I only get to shoot with one other revolver guy on occasion." Alan, Just a reminder to sign up for the revolver squad at Fredericksburg next weekend. Bring your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted July 30, 2006 Author Share Posted July 30, 2006 (edited) I'll be there, and I'm bringing two friends... :-) Its my mission to bring a new shooter every month! Or are you talking about Beth? :-) Edited July 30, 2006 by AFDavis11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slflr Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I'll be there, and I'm bringing two friends... :-) Its my mission to bring a new shooter every month! Or are you talking about Beth? :-) (D) All of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted July 31, 2006 Author Share Posted July 31, 2006 AFDavis,I agree with the Anderson Dry fire book.........Dry fire and wheelguns go hand in hand. Be patient with yourself, but true to yourself. And ask as many questions as needed. When I started there was no one else to ask, so consider yourself lucky. SAM I will, as long as you keep posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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