SteveZ Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I've just recently made the switch from L10 (Single Stack) to Limited so I don't know all the tricks of the game yet...so you'll have to forgive me if this ends up being a stupid question....or common knowledge. I've built my mags using STI tubes, ISMI springs and Dawson followers and basepads. I'm getting 19+1 out of all of my magazines but I'm thinking about making one "cheater" mag to see if I can get one extra round into it. It seems, looking at the Dawson follower (see attached pic) that trimming some material off the bottom might increase the capacity by a round. I looked at a buddies Bevan follower yesterday and notice it's quite short compared to the Dawson follower. So before I go and start modifying the bottom of the follower to see if this works....has anyone else attempted this? Does it still work OK and how much does one have to trim from the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Do you mean trimming some material off the "plug" section under the "head" of the follower? If so, my guess is that the vertical dimension of that center section is less than the vertical dimension of the stack of coils when the spring is fully compressed. Loosely translated, my guess is that trimming there won't accomplish anything (other than making your follower more prone to "capsizing" deep in the tube, which is a Bad Thing). On the other hand, if you're talking about trimming some from the underside of the "head" section, so that [effectively] the top of the follower is lower relative to the spring? dunno. I'm using Grams springs/followers, and quite happy with them... http://shootersconnection.com/store/produc...products_id=438 Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Steve, Before you go crazy, keep in mind that the width of the mag body had a substantial influence in how many rounds will fit in it. I squeezed mine in a padded vice (front to back) and widened them out a bit. It worked better with some than others, so I have a couple 20+1's and a few 19+1's. Also, my experience is that every factory STI tube is too narrow to feed well, so the widening process was necessary just for the sake of reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 Do you mean trimming some material off the "plug" section under the "head" of the follower? yeah....basically thats what I was thinking...shave a couple hundredths off the bottom of the "plug" part. I was thinking the same thing about "tipping" when compressed...but then having looked at Bevens follower (and its lack of a plug) I was thinking maybe it wasn't entirely needed....but then maybe the Grams spring/follower combination won't tip because of the way the spring attaches to the follower. At worst case...this would be an $8.00 experiment if I destroy the follower. Steve,Also, my experience is that every factory STI tube is too narrow to feed well, so the widening process was necessary just for the sake of reliability. Thats interesting Eric....so far all three of my mags have been completely reliable loaded to 19 rounds. I haven't had a single problem with this gun or magazines yet...which means either I'm really lucky...or there isn't as much "rocket science" as I thought there was to Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpty1 Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Both Grams and Dawson's new followers are already designed to get the most capacity out of a mag while ensuring reliability. I suspect you might be better off playing with spring lengths (cutting coils, half coils, etc) than trying to modify the follower itself. You can obviously go too far in this area, but if this is a special occasion, one extra round type thing, you might be OK as the mag should see limited use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Steve, Also, my experience is that every factory STI tube is too narrow to feed well, so the widening process was necessary just for the sake of reliability. Thats interesting Eric....so far all three of my mags have been completely reliable loaded to 19 rounds. I haven't had a single problem with this gun or magazines yet...which means either I'm really lucky...or there isn't as much "rocket science" as I thought there was to Limited. Man...you just live a charmed life don't ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 Man...you just live a charmed life don't ya! ....or it could be because I bought my gun (STI Edge) from Dawson Precision....and they really DO go over the gun and make sure it works before they send it out! I think I'll leave my followers alone....I'm sure Dave knows more about followers than I do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 You could stick a small blob of something (wax, gum, play-dough, ... ) to the bottom of the follower and load up the mag, then unload it and take a look. If the blob is squished, trim follower. If not, you need room elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I haven't looked at one up close that wasn't in a mag - but from the pic, it looks like the "plug" at the bottom of the follower will be shorter than the solid column height of the spring. ie, it's not making any difference, and shortening it won't add capacity.... Remember, you've got 10 or 11 coils of spring, or so that effectively stack up fairly straight, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'm also wishing I could get one mag to 20+1 just in case I would ever need it. I started with unknown guts in my mags and bought Dawson +1 pads and Gram's 11-coil spring/follower. I got 19 before and I still get 19. I later figured out that my old followers were Arredondo's. The real reason I'd like to get 20 is to make spending all that $$ more worthwhile. I do know based on the measurement guide in Dawson's catalog that +1 was the correct base pad. Based on Eric's post, I tried squishing one of my mags in the vice. I also tried using wooden shims to wedge them open a little wider. I took measurements near the witness holes the whole time and I opened one mag up from 0.92 to 0.93, outside dimensions. That hasn't helped much and now 19 is a little tighter actually. What are your outside dimensions of the tube Eric and how hard did you have to sqeeze it? Do you put the mag parallel to the vice jaws or perpendicular? I'm afraid to squeeze it too hard. All of mine are in the 0.92 range. I was attempting this on an older STI mag with the two ribs running down the left side and one faint stripe running down the right side. I may try the shim trick on my SV mag. It may open up a little easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted July 5, 2006 Author Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) Both Grams and Dawson's new followers are already designed to get the most capacity out of a mag while ensuring reliability. I suspect you might be better off playing with spring lengths (cutting coils, half coils, etc) than trying to modify the follower itself. I probably should have thought of that earlier. I measured the diameter of my spring coils (.050") and counted 11.5 coils, which means I've got .55" of stacked up coils. The plug measures about .50" below the follower itself...which means my spring is going into full compression before the plug would make contact with the basepad. Rather than messing with cutting coils..I think I'll just live with the fact that I've got 19 rounds....after all...one round isn't gonna really make all that much of a difference....is it? Don't answer that! Edited July 5, 2006 by SteveZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Years ago while shooting a .40 S&W in a Limited Para-Ord. the only original high cap mags I could find for it were meant for .45 ACP. I quickly squeeze-modified the lips to .40 S&W apecs and they worked fine. But sometimes with the Arredondo followers, when I tried to push in a "real" extra round a cartridge would find a way below the follower and remain there for the duration, puzzling the heck out of me. This started a trend for me, which I believe has some following, of using the immediately next up size magazine to achieve extra capacity, eg: using 45 mags for 40 and 40 mags for 38/9mm after remodeling the lips. The end result is effectively a somewhat larger internal width that can potentially hold more "smaller" cartridges. The downside is that the factory knew best when they designed the magazine width, and you could end up with assorted jams. On the other hand I have one STI 140mm mag in .40S&W that seems to work great with every gun I ever tried on whether loaded with .40 S&W, .38 Super or 9mm, but that one seems to be the exception. Regarding the Dawson follower. That "plug" underneath actually helps keep your coils from deforming and twisting during maximum compression, or stop the coils from actually binding and changing their memory, thereby extending their usefull life. It also helps to keep the nose from diving with continuous use and spring fatigue. In some extreme cases where coils are cut to suit, then some could be shaved if the follower plug "bottomed". Otherwise, enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenTX Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) I've built my mags using STI tubes, ISMI springs and Dawson followers and basepads. I'm getting 19+1 out of all of my magazines but I'm thinking about making one "cheater" mag to see if I can get one extra round into it. There are variations in mag bodies when new, some will hold 20 as you get them and some will not. When someone like Grams tune a mag, they are optimizing the demensions among other things, such as polishing and modifying the lips. My Beven Grams tuned 140mm mag hols a reloadable 20. My other mags both STI and SV vary from 19, reloadable 20 and non reloadable 20. I polish the inside of my mags. Every time I clean a mag I use a semi damp silicon cloth to wipe the inside of the mag and the spring and follower. When I load my mags I wipe the bullets with the semi damp silicon cloth. I can notice a reduction in the effort loading the mag and that was how "some" of my 19 round mags started to accept 20. It is extra work, but IMO, worth it Edited July 5, 2006 by CenTX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Steve, Splashdown, Cut your springs to 10.5 coils. See how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 A SURE 19 is a lot better than a " I hope" 20. That what they make the little button behind the trigger for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Based on Eric's post, I tried squishing one of my mags in the vice. I also tried using wooden shims to wedge them open a little wider. I took measurements near the witness holes the whole time and I opened one mag up from 0.92 to 0.93, outside dimensions. That hasn't helped much and now 19 is a little tighter actually. What are your outside dimensions of the tube Eric and how hard did you have to sqeeze it? Do you put the mag parallel to the vice jaws or perpendicular? I'm afraid to squeeze it too hard. All of mine are in the 0.92 range. I was attempting this on an older STI mag with the two ribs running down the left side and one faint stripe running down the right side. I may try the shim trick on my SV mag. It may open up a little easier. I forget what my OD was, but squeezing mags in a vice is a hell of a lot of work. I'm pretty sure I had to widen mine up to .950 or better. Once I did, the rounds fed *much* better through the mag. It's not something you can do in two minutes. There's a reason why Beven makes what he does to tune mags. The only reason I went the DIY route was because of Beven's backlog. BTW, I had zero luck in using a mandrel to alter my mag dims. If I ever get a mill, I'm going to build up a special squeezing jig to do the job. The key is to only squeeze the mag on the outside edges front to back. Any pressure in the middle will collapse the body of the mag. I have some newer STI tubes that appear to have gone through some type of heat treat process as they are tougher than hell to move the dims on. I think you may have to anneal the body of the mag to do the job right, but I decided to leave well enough alone on those for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I squeeze mags a section at a time-- put maybe an inch or two in a bench vice and give the handle a crank. Measure again and see if it needs more or less squashing (you can in limited cases, put them back by squeezing the sides if you went too far). Always check they drop free before going hog wild too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinity Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 (edited) Well, if u have the extra dough for it experiment on 1 follower. as i look at the pic u showed us the area where the spring is locked up into has to parts, the first part is the shorter one and the second is where the spring locks into. try trimming the shorter one. and see if the spring will still lock in place on the longer "meat" that might help u...and if it fails just get another $8 follower..just my 2cents Edited July 7, 2006 by infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVZ Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Anyone ever thought Dave and Bevin may know a little something about followers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinity Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Never hurts to experiment to find out for yourself right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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