tightloop Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Shred What is it about the stage you referenced that is outside the rules...just curious...seems pretty straightforward... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hmm.. off the top of my head, and as far as I know: No VC steel No "if you don't knock this target down, you have to shoot that one". No "you can't shoot this target unless you missed that one" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Boy, do I feel like a dinosaur. And not even a T-Rex. I oughta try and get to the mainland to see how the rest of the country sets up their matches, 'cause we sure do still do a lot of "run here, shoot that" and "engage T1-T3 with two rounds each, make a mandatory reload...." stuff out here on Maui. And we're the club with arguably the most and best props! I have to admit we're trying to make stuff more "freestyle" and "shoot on the move" but it's sure hard to work out the "breakin' the 90" and "shoot through" traps if you don't want to use every wall panel ya got. The "sport" has changed but not into a "game." It was always a game, but one that was originally designed to educate rather than something to excel at for it's own sake. Techniques learned were supposed to help you in "real" situations but somewhwere along the line we discovered that the competition and sheer fun factor of gripping it and ripping it was perhaps even more of a draw than learning "practical" techniques. After all, the two shot engagement per target originally was a "technique" to enhance the chances for stoppage of a hostile adversary. And the equipment races didn't start with STI or even Para-Ordnance. I'd say it really started when JC and others championed the 1911 platform when everyone else was using revolvers. Then they insured that 9mm wouldn't dominate (Browning Hi-Power) by use of the two level power factor. The capacity race in the 1911 was started by Bill Wilson and Chip McCormick with the eight round mags. I'm sure most remember the standard capacity of a 1911 magazine is seven. As long as nearly "anything goes" in Open we'll have an equipment race that forces the "evil"- lution of stage design. I don't see how including some "old school" style stages in a match somehow makes it less fun. I'd say there's something real to be learned by blowing the match on an "El Presidente." Anyway as I've said before in other posts on other threads, you guys who miss some of the aspects of the "old days," start planning your long awaited Maui vacation now, contact me or ray38super for a schedule and other info. I'm sure once you tell the significant other you're taking her to Maui she'll be so excited she might not notice you're packing your rig and blaster. Unless she shoots too, in which case make sure you pack HER stuff first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I don;t think Chippie or Bill made the first 8 rounders...seems to me that Charlie Kelsey at Devel brought out the first legit "factory" 8 rounders, but I might be mistaken...I remember he and Chippie had a good relationship and that Charlie came to several matches in Austin to promote and sell mags...the first ones were brittle and cracked at the back of tahe lips..but Charlie made each one of them good when you saw him...Great guy.. maybe I should move to Maui to shoot some of the Old School type matches...lol I agree with you, but while some on this forum are fascinated with breaking 3 seconds on the El Prez, I doubt if you will ever see anything close to that, on purpose, in a big match...why zero a stage trying to pull a Jake diVitas with a 3.5 run when you can still be in the hunt with a 5.5 or 6.0 run... I believe you are right about the fun of gripping and ripping it (or is that John Daly on the PGA), but while fun, some aspects heavily promoted by JC and the boys, such as accuracy and power seem to have fallen by the wayside in the rush to grip/rip/run.....such is the evil..ution of the sport... Have to disagree about it being a game at first...as someone on this very forum says...if it has a score card...it is a game...I agree with that 100%... I think some of the guys on this and other forums might tell you that unless it is a classifier, it is against the rules to mandate a reload.. (not freestyle enough for the current crop of shooters)... some of the original shooters with Jeff were guys like Thell Reed, who grew into IPSC out of the Hollywood quick draw phase of the late 50's and very early 60's...Jeff was the driving force behind adopting the 1911 and promoted it over the BHP because he felt that 9mm was not much better than a water gun in a real fight..(got to chuckle even now)... Anyway...continue evil...ing on the island..good luck and safe shooting.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Charlie Kelsey was the first manufacturer of .45ACP mags that I'm aware of. Chip bought the product when Charlie had finacial issues. Wilson mags were originally 7 rounders. To be accurate....Wilson/ Rogers, and I still use them....well with follower/spring kits for 8 rounds Tightloop, I think the vast majority of people here don't know that Para Ordances first product was a Mac 10 simulator that shot paint balls (primer fired cartridges). My first Hi Cap, was a Para frame kit for the .45 ACP with an aluminum frame. One of my friends/old customers started this thread on another site. http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8265 That tells my history, at least what I remember of it To me, if your USPSA number is over an anual of over 5000, you don't remember "Old School" Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I just got my latest "Front Sight" in the mail today. There is an excellent article by Robin Taylor on the origins of the sport and the types of stages that evolved. Of course, our very own Tightloop was actually there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhurd Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 YOu mean this Thell Reed????? From Feb "64" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Waring Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I am only 30 right now, but been shooting IPSC since 1989. I remember old school stages; the ports, boxes, lots of strong and weak hand shooting. Grabbing the dummy and dragging it between shooting positions. The sport has evolved. The guns for instance are far more advanced, but do the same thing as those from the past. Related eqipment: holsters, belts, mag pouches- remember when a Fas-Trac from Ernie Hill was state of the art? I agree that there are alot of matches where fast feet and trigger finger win them. It's amazing how the hosers who win alot of the time will score a D-Mike on a 30-40m target. Hope this doesn't hit a soft spot for some, but it's true One thing about being in Canada, we still can reload (where we have the 10 round limit) which adds I think another aspect to the sport as it's another fundamental that needs to be mastered to be competitive. I like hoser field courses, they're lots of fun, but I love hard tough shot stages, make me transition the gun between strong and weakhand, condition 2 and 3 starts, in a bank of T's, put a 30m target in with 3 -5m targets. Partials, plates, poppers at longer distances. Tightloop I agree with you, this definitely is a game we play, I hope it doesn't drift anymore away from a sport that dictates gun handling skills, accuracy, and efficiency. Ever see the guy pacing around while you're gaming out how to shoot a stage who's stressed out he might not be wearing the right cleats, or "should I start with my 28 or my 29 round stick..... " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary1911A1 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I too started IPSC in 1978 at the old Media Rifle and Pistol Club. I still say IPSC instead of USPSA. We would have matches in an old sand pit. Steve Nastoff would come from Youngstown after we started the Ashland Lake Club and he could take your pistol and have it back to you sometimes at the next month's match. Anyboby here remember "Peter, the Power Meter"? We would shoot H&G68s' so the lead would linger alittle longer on the plate to ensure we made the old power factor of 180 I think. This is why I enjoy the Single Stack Classic and thank Mr. Overlay for bring it back. Well done Gary Stevens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f250sd Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I too would like to see more strong+weak hand shooting, dragging a dummy or shooting while carring a bag or suitecase in one hand, Those are the things I miss since not shooting IDPA any more(I started in IDPA) But I'm lucky enough that the two clubs I shoot at the most, throw in a lot of 35+yd targets as well as a lot of tight no-shoot, hard cover shoots to keep the skills up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Sam....I might have been there, never know...I did get started in the sport late in life..was in my 30's...might have been a world beater if I had started as a kid, but of course we all know gun powder was not even invented when I was a kid...LOL johnhurd...Yes, that Thell Reed...where on earth did you find that cover...my lord, I thought I horded magazines..you have me beaten by a mile...my oldest is something in the early 70's but I did have a fire and lost some really old stuff... gary1911A1....are you talking about the ballistic pendelum? I never knew it had a name. Man, I haven't heard about Steve Nastoff for a long time...he made some really incredible early comp pistols...the fit and finish was about as good as it came..does he still shoot? I think the last time I saw him was at the Natl's sometime around 82 or 83 in Illinois...what a great guy, savvy 'smith and a great shooter as well.. Ahhhhhh, Nostalga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Tightloop, Steve Nastoff did show up at the Miller Invitational a time or two. That would have been in the late 80's. I've not seen hide nor hair of him since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhurd Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 johnhurd...Yes, that Thell Reed...where on earth did you find that cover...my lord, I thought I horded magazines..you have me beaten by a mile...my oldest is something in the early 70's but I did have a fire and lost some really old stuff... I just threw out RIfleman mags from 62 .................. That one missed the trash bag the day I was throwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I know that as soon as I toss it I will remember an article of picture I really meant to save..but then too late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 can anyone say "Stop Plate"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 outerlimits You cannot JUST say stop plate: you have to say WHISTLE, STOP WATCH, & STOP PLATE.. Man, we had a guy who used to shoot with us in the real old days that was soooo sloooowwww, they used to time him with a sun dial.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary1911A1 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Hello tightloop, It's been the mid 80s' since I have talked to Steve Nastoff. I hear rumors, but I don't know. I guess I'm talking about the ballistic pendelum? It had a plate we would caliibrate it with factory 230gr out of a commander and it would move an "arrow" attached to the plate so far. Lead bullets out of a 5" barrel seemed to have more time on the plate as it deformed and would move the "arrow" as far and more. It wasn't to accurate as it wouldn't be the same at each match or it seemed to be that way to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Yep, I remember it...our club had one...we shot that thing with everything under the sun from 32ACP to .458 Win Mag....the thing that moved it farthest was a full tilt 45-70 about 405 gr lead at 2050...just about maxed out the thing... I was really glad when electronic timers became the defacto standard...did not like the whistle....but loved learning to do things with a pistol, noone else could do...weak hand reload, behind the back weak hand draw, roll over prone....first Nat's I went to just about blew me away....man, saw Raul Walters shoot the mover with such speed and grace it was amazing....the athletism of Fowler, the preparedness of Seyfried, the inventiveness of Campbell...never knew how far back I really was till then...I got beaten by Heidi Lippmeyer, a 15 yr old girl for heaven sake..how about that for a real macho performance...? Funny now, but when it happened, it just about crushed me... Yep, those were the Olden Times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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