Should There Be More Revolver Gms?

[Carmoney]

I don't buy the argument that there just aren't enough revo classifiers on record....An insufficient number of classifiers on record may have been the case originally, but it certainly cannot be the case today.

Excellent point. According to the website, there are now 13,404 classifiers in the database for the Revolver division, which is more than enough to establish our own realistic high hit factors for each of the 65-70 classifiers currently in use. All Sedro has to do is hit a couple different buttons on the computer--all the data's already in there.

[Carmoney]

Bump.

[Waltermitty]

So did something change in the classifier system to help our two new GM's or is the system still Status Quo?

[10mmdave]

So did something change in the classifier system to help our two new GM's or is the system still Status Quo?

I believe still status quo.............just with the addition of the 06 classifiers.

For what it's worth...

my 06-10 classifier with a HF of 6.8966 was GM (100% +) for revo division,

"A class" for Production, and "B class" for Lim, Lim 10 and Open.

(if that means anything)

But as folks have stated earlier, we should have enough classifiers on record to come up

with proper classifications for us "wheelie's"

[D.carden]

So did something change in the classifier system to help our two new GM's or is the system still Status Quo?

I believe still status quo.............just with the addition of the 06 classifiers.

For what it's worth...

my 06-10 classifier with a HF of 6.8966 was GM (100% +) for revo division,

"A class" for Production, and "B class" for Lim, Lim 10 and Open.

(if that means anything)

But as folks have stated earlier, we should have enough classifiers on record to come up

with proper classifications for us "wheelie's"

I shot that 06-10 at our last match.........30pts / 3.7 sec.....hf 8.10 = 128% ( using calculator)......Didn't take much to get a GM%.....Doesn't seem realistic to me........

Edited August 15, 2006 by D.carden

[10mmdave]

So did something change in the classifier system to help our two new GM's or is the system still Status Quo?

I believe still status quo.............just with the addition of the 06 classifiers.

For what it's worth...

my 06-10 classifier with a HF of 6.8966 was GM (100% +) for revo division,

"A class" for Production, and "B class" for Lim, Lim 10 and Open.

(if that means anything)

But as folks have stated earlier, we should have enough classifiers on record to come up

with proper classifications for us "wheelie's"

I shot that 06-10 at our last match.........30pts / 3.7 sec.....hf 8.10 = 128% ( using calculator)......Didn't take much to get a GM%.....Doesn't seem realistic to me........

Great score Dan ! looks like my place on the list won't last too long

[10mmdave]

So did something change in the classifier system to help our two new GM's or is the system still Status Quo?

I believe still status quo.............just with the addition of the 06 classifiers.

For what it's worth...

my 06-10 classifier with a HF of 6.8966 was GM (100% +) for revo division,

"A class" for Production, and "B class" for Lim, Lim 10 and Open.

(if that means anything)

But as folks have stated earlier, we should have enough classifiers on record to come up

with proper classifications for us "wheelie's"

I shot that 06-10 at our last match.........30pts / 3.7 sec.....hf 8.10 = 128% ( using calculator)......Didn't take much to get a GM%.....Doesn't seem realistic to me........

Great score Dan ! looks like my place on the list won't last too long

Hmmmmm now that I look at that stage again, I wonder why I shot it so slow ??

[pskys2]

Dan did you get a chance to watch Nils at the IRC? He came within 4% of TGO.

I wonder if this means that Dr. Dremel can no longer be considered the "Newbie"?

Heck, we may be in danger of becoming the "Old Guard"!

[D.carden]

Dan did you get a chance to watch Nils at the IRC? He came within 4% of TGO.

I wonder if this means that Dr. Dremel can no longer be considered the "Newbie"?

Heck, we may be in danger of becoming the "Old Guard"!

He's GOOD Dave.........I mean REAL GOOD.......!!!!!

He's every bit of what you read or hear......Nice kid too

Edited August 15, 2006 by D.carden

[redmist10]

I shot that 06-10 at our last match.........30pts / 3.7 sec.....hf 8.10 = 128% ( using calculator)......Didn't take much to get a GM%.....Doesn't seem realistic to me........

There was a time when a man would bet you a dollar to a doughnut that a 10 second El Prez was not possible....how about a 3.2 second El Prez?

Anyway, until someone can come along and shoot 06-10 in 2.5 seconds you have earned the 100% with your 3.7 and if that gets you a GM card then so be it.

Shooting some of these classifiers may not be hard for some of us but if it were truly easy, everyone in the revolver division would be shooting them at 100% - but they're not....someone is going to eventually raise the bar even by a hair.

At least that my take on it, I could be wrong.

Edited August 16, 2006 by redmist10

[Carmoney]

OK, Parker, your glorious moment is now over--time now to jump all over him, right guys?

Seriously folks, let's talk about what happened here.

We don't have our own separate revolver-specific database, as we've discussed. What we have are high hit factors that are based off Limited, with an adjustment level (what I call the "discount") factored in to accommodate our 6-round capacity and slower reloading times.

With possibly a few exceptions, the 99-series classifiers used a 10% discount. This was probably too low a discount rate. But the bigggest problem was that it didn't matter whether the stage was 6-round neutral or not, the discount was always the same. The flat 10% is fairly reasonable for El Prez, but not nearly enough for Barrel of Fun, where you had to somehow absorb two extra reloads in order to follow the description. Under the 99-series, it was almost impossible to make GM without major match wins, and in fact that's exactly how Jerry pulled it off.

The 03-series classifiers appear to all have a 30% discount rate. This was much better for the non-6-round-neutral stages, but probably a little too much discount for nice revo-friendly classifiers like Papers Poppers or Ironsides. Which is why we did quite well on those.

So then they bring out 11 new classifiers a couple months ago, the 06-series. And damned if they're not using what appears to be at least a 45+% discount for us revolver shooters. That's enough discount that it's not too difficult for a good wheelgunner to get a 100% score even on the non-6-round-neutral ones like the Fluffy's Revenge I and II (8-round courses).

But here's the big problem: Of the new 06-series classifiers, six of them are revolver neutral, and four of those require no reloads (all the Steely Speeds). And Sedro is using that same 45+% discount even for those!! This is way too much advantage, and it makes those classifiers far too easy to clobber, as Dan did with his 128% run on 06-10.

Let's take 06-10 and use it as an example. The stage requires the shooter to simply draw and shoot down six poppers. If you're shooting Limited, you need a 2.97-second run to get a 100% national classifier score from the great computer in the sky. In Revolver, we are given 4.69 seconds to accomplish the same task to get a 100% score. That's way too much advantage, considering there's no reload or nothin'!

And that's why, if you spool down through the Top 20 lists, you'll see that the active revolver guys are doing extraordinarily well on the 06-series classifiers, posted tons of 100% scores. In the case of the two guys who just jumped to GM, they happened to shoot a bunch of 06s over the past month or two, caught a bunch of 100% scores, and rode the wave right on up. In Dave's case, he jumped from B straight to GM!

Lots of clubs are shooting the 06-series classifiers, of course, because they're novel and new. This means Jerry, Dave and Nils are going to have lots of company up there in G-Man land very soon. Unless USPSA does something to correct this, we are going to see new Revolver GMs every month for awhile. We will have local club-level shooters out there, that nobody's ever even heard of, suddenly show up on the Revo GM list.

And guys, this is exactly the kind of situation I was concerned about when I started this thread. It went from being too hard (in fact, nearly impossible) to make GM in Revolver before, to now being far too easy. Inflation has struck, devaluing the value of the GM card as a result. Now I believe Dave and Nils are the kind of shooters who will live up to the GM title, but that sure won't be the case for everybody else who makes it.

The answer, once again, is to develop a reasonable, realistic database for Revolver division, based on actual performance by Revolver shooters. Ultimately, it should be about each shooter's ability, not the luck of the draw on which classifiers one happens to shoot.

Or so it seems to me.

[dgsmith]

I agree with Mike,

What bothers me is that a person can jump 3 classes in a month. Are these two people going to be able to beat masters , A class on a reagular basis in a reall match? If not then they are not true GM's in my eyes. Trust me I am envious of these two. I would love to hold a GM card. Only problem I would have to stop shooting USPSA because I know that I would get my butt wooped by people who were more deserving of higher classifactions than what they have. I do not want to take away from their glory , they shoot way better than me to get those kind of times . But an A card or Master card would be as high as they would get from me untill I saw match results that matched their card class.

[Viggen]

Time will tell.

How have they performed in ICORE which is Revo intensive?

[AZ38super]

Mike, you are right on and all we can do is hope the powers to be are seeing this and begin to change the way scores are calculated very soon. Now this may change a few peoples class up or down but at least we would know where everyone stood based on a revolver and not a percentage guess. This % off stuff is nuts and not a true measure.

I know that a lot of revolver shooters have been putting in a ton of effort lately and their scores show it so we are not saying they didn't earn their class. I know it has been exciting watching Nils move over to the wheelgun and fight back and forth with Vic and Rob. They often beat each other back and forth in our local matches by .01 up or down so no one knows until the finals are tallied.

Nils is a master class shooter with a bottom feeder and with the effort he has put in and improvement he has gained with the wheelgun I know he has earned his GM spot as I would bet for Parker as well. And Rob should be a GM as well if he has any classifiers turned in so that adds one more to the list.

[Carmoney]

How have they performed in ICORE which is Revo intensive?

Gotta remember that ICORE and USPSA w/revolver are two very different disciplines that reward different sets of skills. At first blush, you would think the same people would dominate both games, but in fact there are only a very few shooters who really truly excel at both.

[Nemo]

It also means Nils and TenMil are "ipso facto" Single Stack GM's.

Way to go guys!

[Carmoney]

ipso facto

These dang range lawyers, always running around quoting latin phrases at us.......

[Waltermitty]

ipso facto

These dang range lawyers, always running around quoting latin phrases at us.......

I just thought he just misspelled "ipsc factoid".

[redmist10]

Or so it seems to me.

That's quite a convincing post, I'll have to admit. Thanks Mike!

Edited August 16, 2006 by redmist10

[Carmoney]

Holy crap.

I just figured out how they calculated the HHFs for 06-10. It's not a percentage of Limited after all. They simply used the top score from that stage at last year's USPSA Nationals.

Jarrett's 2.98 winning run in Limited is exactly 100% for Lim, according to the OH calculator

Divita's 2.93 winning run in Open is exactly 100% for Open, according to the OH calculator.

And some slow-poke wheelgunner's 4.74 became the 100% benchmark for Revo, too......

[Nemo]

ipso facto

These dang range lawyers, always running around quoting latin phrases at us.......

I really don't know what it means, I just like how it sounds when you guys use it... Besides like WalterMitty said, it sounds IPSCish.

[10mmdave]

OK, Parker, your glorious moment is now over--time now to jump all over him, right guys?

Jeez Mike, I thought you'd give me at least a couple days to bask in glory

Seriously folks, let's talk about what happened here.

We don't have our own separate revolver-specific database, as we've discussed. What we have are high hit factors that are based off Limited, with an adjustment level (what I call the "discount") factored in to accommodate our 6-round capacity and slower reloading times.

<snip>

The answer, once again, is to develop a reasonable, realistic database for Revolver division, based on actual performance by Revolver shooters. Ultimately, it should be about each shooter's ability, not the luck of the draw on which classifiers one happens to shoot.

Or so it seems to me.

I agree completely, until we have our own set of scores all this don't mean a whole lot.

And just to set the record straight, one of our clubs here is a tad slow in getting data

in to Sedro so that's why the jump from B to GM (course I think I was an A for a couple weeks )

[Liota]

One of you guys, Sam, I think, suggested that we base everyone's classification on multiple guns. Of course, Jerry would still kick our collective butts, even with bottom-feeders.

Going to Jerry's for learning is an excellent experience. Jerry is a great instructor. He taught well and I learned a lot. Granted, I promptly left the country, but I still work on my ability to walk, considering I have so much opportunity. (Lower ranking NCOs are not allowed to drive here.) Flipping hills! I love Korea.

I wanted to shoot revolver for a long time and still might. Jerry, Bud Bond and the whole revolver squad seemed to be having such a blast at the American Handgunner both years I went. Man! I wanted to shoot revolver really badly. Especially after I got to shoot Bud's. It was sweet! I think it was one of Jerry's I got to play with at his place a couple of years back. It was nice, too.

Liota

Edited August 17, 2006 by Liota

[pskys2]

Holy crap.

I just figured out how they calculated the HHFs for 06-10. It's not a percentage of Limited after all. They simply used the top score from that stage at last year's USPSA Nationals.

Jarrett's 2.98 winning run in Limited is exactly 100% for Lim, according to the OH calculator

Divita's 2.93 winning run in Open is exactly 100% for Open, according to the OH calculator.

And some slow-poke wheelgunner's 4.74 became the 100% benchmark for Revo, too......

And it wasn't JM who set it was it? Did you get a 100% credit, or was there a reason for the ' before your name. Kinda like an asterick by a batting record?

You know I like that USPSA used top scores like that. Even if it's not JM.

I can name several who IMHO should be Revo GM's. The new dude, El Conquistador,

Danbagger, Keith (if he sticks with Revo's), Hop-a-long, maybe even Bubber (just because he shoots those damn speed loaders so well). There were several who were running in the 90's on the "old" classifiers.

Now that doesn't mean I'd expect them to wup up on JM at a Match. Kind of like all the other GM's trying to catch TGO. It isn't likely, at any given time. But, the race is still there.

The curve is going to flood us with GM's for a while. Maybe help get the interest up and then it'll level out. This years Nationals is going to be great! Wish there'd be a DVD on it.

Edited August 17, 2006 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

The curve is going to flood us with GM's for a while.

It may not be as bad as I was thinking. I agree with you that it's somewhat encouraging to see Sedro using actual revolver scores to set the HHFs, I believe it's the first time for that. If they continue to make periodic adjustments like they have in other divisions, it could all work out OK.

Plus, after the flurry of interest in the 06s has worn down a little, and we're back to seeing a mixture of 99s, 03s and 06s, the overall aggregate of HHFs might be about right after all.

I've decided to relax and just wait and see.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Carmoney