Long Range shots???

[Flexmoney]

?

[Ron Ankeny]

There is no such thing as a long range shot in action pistol. Does that help?

[Flexmoney]

No.

[Bill]

Flex,

I'm not sure what you are looking for here, but, I think we too many times only have close shooting in our pistol games. I know several shooters who do OK until the targets are moved farther away than 10 - 12 yards. A lot of IDPA shooters can't move up to the next classification because of the longer shots on stage 3.

My thoughts are that there should be some longer range shots in each match. They don't have to be in every stage but there should be a few shots out to 25 or even 50 yards. Many shooters can still get acceptable hits on close targets by not seeing the sights and jerking the trigger. I know because I have done it.

Bill Nesbitt

[Ron Ankeny]

Flex:

My comment reflects the current state of affairs that I see in local matches. Targets out the wazoo at arm's length where speed and high hit factors rule. Long Range shots??? We need more of them. In bays (like ours) with restricted space, we need tighter and more difficult shots such as a 6 inch square plate or an 8 inch plate at at least 20 yards thrown in from time to time.

Bill:

It seems like the position that IDPA has taken is to make all shots easy so everyone, regardless of skill level can make the shot. Then the timer sorts them out. It is very rare for me to see an IDPA target at much more than 10 - 15 yards.

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 10:39 am on Dec. 20, 2002)

[Deaf Smith]

There is a way around this. Just make the head of the target the only exposed portion of the target. Or, supprise, HALF a head at 10 yards. Might even have two or three such targets on one stage.

In fact, that sounds like a good stage to design.

[Bill]

Ron,

You haven't seen some of the stages I designed. The rule book says occasional shots out to 35 yards are OK.

Bill Nesbitt

[Steve Anderson]

They separate the men from the boys for sure, ( and the grils from the women, to be fair and PC) and I'm still in adolescence on this one.

I can make longer shots in practice, but on the clock I tend to get hinky with 'em.

I do a drill with my .22s that has 4 plates at 10yds and one at 30, it's great for focus change.

I guess we can look forward to black mini poppers at 25 yds next year, huh Flex?

Then again, paper targets are harder at those ranges, because you have to know you hit well...

SA

[THS]

Bill,

Where do I find the "occasional shots out to 35 yards are OK" part in the rule book?  I've seen standards that went to 50 regularly, (and I LIKE them as they play into my bullseye background.)

Tom

[Bill]

THS,

Page 18. 75% of all shots required in a match must be 15 yards or less; however occasional targets out to 35 yards are to be encouraged. That certainly separates the accurate shooters from the trigger slappers.

Bill Nesbitt

[THS]

Bill,

page 18 of the 14th edition is a Glossary of terms.  

????

[Bill]

THS,

OOPS.

Being mainly an IDPA shooter I quoted from the IDPA Little Green Book.

For IPSC how about rules 1.1.2 Quality, 1.1.3 Balance & 1.1.6 Difficulty?

Bill Nesbitt

[THS]

BIll,

I've read and re-read those.

The thought I have is that USPSA has evolved into more of a "free fire zone" mentality with the round count and hit factor being in the "higher is better" camp.  

What Accuracy is required to hit targets across a card table from you?  Those might be Speed tests, but the sport has also evolved in to "Speed of movement" as opposed to shooting speed.  

As for head shots at 10 yards.....  They aint the same as the 50 yard standards of the Nationals we used to see!

It is a sport after all, and there is little practical (as in self defense) need for 50 yard shots, but they are a pretty stiff test of one of the three pillars of IPSC.  It seems we've made it to the point that 35 yards is considered Long Range...

I'm with Flex:  The correct answer is "What long shots?" at 99% of the stages I've seen.

Tom

[Bill]

I think that stage design can be a local thing and not all areas are guilty, but I agree that speed outweighs accuracy on most stages.

I guess it's up to us to change things. Look for longer distance shots at the 2003 Ohio State & West Virginia State IDPA Championships.

Flex, have you picked all the stages for the Buckeye Blast yet?? If not prepare for e-mail. Do you want a speed shoot, a field (assault) (whatever they are called now ) course or a fixed time standards??

Bill Nesbitt

[Flexmoney]

I started this thread with inspiration from the thread asking about the distance rifle targets should be.  

I was wondering where it might lead.

The feel that I get in USPSA is that this last year...some of the "hoser" stages gave way, and some accuracy made it's way back in.

Obvisously, for local matches, you have to know your customers.  If you have a young club (without a bullseye background), you can't have all your targets at 25 yards+ and expect people to have a good time.

If you really know your customers, then you can design stages that lead them down the path that turns their weaknesses to strengthes.  (lofty goal?)

Big matches...?

[Flexmoney]

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread...;threadid=34830

[kimel]

Some people will bitch and scream no matter what you do.  Others will see a challenge and rise to the occassion.  My guess is that those that complain have never bothered to try and shoot at distance.

At the range I shoot at there is 8 or 10 inch (never measured it) steel plate hanging at 100 yards.  

Most days when I am there I will go bang away at it with the .44 mag but yesterday I got the wild idea to bang away with the .40.  I was surprised that the .40 shot that flat out to 100 yards.  Had a blast.  Reminded me of the days when Dad and I would put milk jugs full of water out at 50 and 100 yards and bang away with the .44's.  Next time IPSC targets at long range...just in case Guy gets any ideas from this thread for the January match.  

Guess that is the difference between people that shoot for fun and people that shoot just for score.  

Cheers!

Kevin

[Guy Neill]

Over the years, most seem to have had more enjoyment with shorter ranges.  One of the things I have seen is the ranges decrease over the years so that long range is seldom seen these days.  Not that I do well at long range, but some long range should be included for all around skill.

Just like standards, the shooter needs to be able to handle the task.

We'll see what happens in January.

Guy

[gm iprod]

If IDPA is seen as a real life scenario type shooting?, not letting the bad guy too close should be a good thing.

I agree that IPSC is getting too much like a hose and hope type shooting. I like speed stages, I do well. But I can hit the long ones quite well, as long as I don't try to hose them. 35yards is not that LONG. 50yards is getting there. Shoot NRA Action and see how you do at 50.

[Loves2Shoot]

UM, 2002 Racegun nats, anyone go, because that was a serious shooting test, according to TGO's speach at the awards, and from personal experience. They might not have been that long, but you had to know how to break your shots.

I do think that local clubs should keep that in mind because hoser stages don't make you shoot. They can be fun, but if you are used to spray and pray and go to a well designed major match you will be scared as hell when you see all that white and black.

THS,

We did see the 50 yard standards at Nats.

[dirtypool40]

I think they are right, you can make tough shots without distance, but distance can be a real ball buster.

Some ranges can't do distance, so they work with what they've got.  

I also like "run and guns", but I like distance in there, esp on the move, as a way to separate out the cream. OK, sometimes, I am the one getting separated out, but I still like it!!! Like today at CFPSA, the OPTION of taking a 20y target on the move or stnding flat footed, gives you a chance to push BOTH speed and accuracy.

On the other hand there is still (I think) a classifier for 50y. Is it Area 3 standards? or LR Standards? Whichever it's tough. I shot it pretty well (first time ever at 50y line for me) I think on string 2, go to kneeling and fire 2 ea on 3 targets, I got 6 hits in around 5 flat.  You may notice I did not say "6 tightly clustered A's".

As to IDPA, while they have the same range as our IPSC clubs, they do not like to do anything over 10y where we shoot (the ranges go out to over 35y). While they beat me over the head with the tactical thing again, I agree with the guy above who said don't let the BG get close, esp if you can shoot further back.

Anyone ever pace off how far it is down a grocery store isle? try 30+yards.  How about from the gas pumps to the front door of the local stop and rob, maybe 20 yards on average?

I know we are supposed to avoid all confrontation, and I subscribe to that, but I like knowing if I had to I could get them before they could get me.

I have seen a few gang banger types practicing at the local range. It's fairly easy to spot them, they were the chains, their daddy's pants and rent a Tec-9.  

From what I have seen, if they pull one on you, take two steps back and you're safe. LOL

[mcginnes]

Ok, I'm no urban commando or TEF, and IDPA's not my thing, but... isn't IDPA supposed to be all 'tactical?' Doesn't every TEF school teach that distance is your friend; 'get out of the hole' and whatnot? Wouldn't a practiced shooter's biggest advantage be in that 35-50+ yard range where he can make hits and most badguys (described above) cannot? Give me good cover and 50 yards of open ground between me and my attacker and I can stay alive until the cops get there. Oh, and God help the man who tries to rush me across that open ground.

I would think that IDPA would want to encourage stage designs with these kinds of shots. [mode=rant] If I were Benevolent Dictator, I'd want maybe 70% of shots within 15 yds, most of the rest within 50 yds with occasional shots out to 75 and a rare 100 yd shot. I might balance this by making it shots on steel and using long par times. Anybody who wants to be a TEF guy ought to be able to hit a Pepper Popper at 100 yds given enough time and ammo. Ok, the stage wouldn't be a lot of fun, and everybodys score would be the same, but IDPA isn't supposed to care about that gamey kind of stuff, right? [/mode]

[shred]

Weeeelll... 50-100 yard shots are typically a bit difficult to justify as "self defense". Sure there may be "Tactical Applications" in an offensive mode, but I think that's kinda not what IDPA is supposed to be about.

Occasional long shots are good, but what does shooting a pistol at 100 yards tell you that shooting at 50 won't?

[Loves2Shoot]

It will tell you it is a dang silly thing to do! If I want to shoot at 100 yards I will shoot bullseye. I like the shooting challenges, ie. angles, hardcover, no-shoots, the more the better, but when your front sight is twice as big as the target the fun factor goes way down (along with the hit factor.)

[mcginnes]

Ok, I was in rant mode.

Shred is right, probably not many situations where it would be neccesary for self-defense. The only one I can think of is the North Hollywood Shootout. Even there, if I'm not a cop, I'm 100 yards away and have cover, then I'm going to retreat if I can or else hunker down. But hey, I'm no TEF guy.

It will tell you that you CAN hit things at 100 yards with a pistol. I've shot bowling pins at 100 yards with a Glock 17, so it can be done. Poppers at 100yds would be a horrible IPSC stage. (how about a side match: fewest shots wins, most shots has to go reset the popper. Somebody stop me.)

Beyond that I'll let it go, lest I develop an urge to crawl under a bridge and eat billy goats.