No Shoot Madness

[rtr]

Had this one happen to me today, curious what folks think the answer is.

Engaging 3 paper targets with a no shoot in front of me. I plugged the no shoot three times, one hit totally within the scoring perfs, two hits half in the perf and half out. I fired 6 times, there were 6 alpha hits on the targets. So how many no shoot penalties and how many hits on the shoot targets count? What rule do you cite?

[uscbigdawg]

If you only fired 6 shots, I'd give you:

5 A's

1 M

3 No-Shoots.

Rule Citing:

9.1.5 - Impenetrable - The scoring area of all IPSC scoring and penalty targets is deemed to be impenetrable. If a:

9.1.5.3 - Bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or metal target, and continues on to strike the scoring area of another paper target, the hit on the subsequent paper target will also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

Edited May 14, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[ima45dv8]

I'd recommend one small change, Rich:

5 A's

1 M

2 NS's

"9.4.2 Each hit visible on the scoring area of a penalty paper target will

be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum

scoring hit, up to a maximum of 2 hits per penalty target."

(emphasis added)

[uscbigdawg]

Makes sense to me. I always forget that rule.

Rich

Edited May 14, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[Jim Norman]

I'd recommend one small change, Rich:

5 A's

1 M

2 NS's

"9.4.2 Each hit visible on the scoring area of a penalty paper target will

be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum

scoring hit, up to a maximum of 2 hits per penalty target."

(emphasis added)

Now that is looks like USPSA will have its own complete unadulterated rulebook this rule will hopefully be changed back to the way it should be where all hits a NS count.

Jim

[chuckw]

Now that is looks like USPSA will have its own complete unadulterated rulebook this rule will hopefully be changed back to the way it should be where all hits a NS count.

I hope USPSA leaves the rule just the way it is now. I've heard all the arguments and I vote for counting a maximum of 2 hits or misses on shoots and 2 hits on noshoots.

[mactiger]

I'd recommend one small change, Rich:

5 A's

1 M

2 NS's

"9.4.2 Each hit visible on the scoring area of a penalty paper target will

be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value of a maximum

scoring hit, up to a maximum of 2 hits per penalty target."

(emphasis added)

+1 (On the 2 NS thing, too.)

Troy

Edited May 15, 2006 by mactiger

[GeorgeInNePa]

Well, if we're going to give opinions, I'll voice mine too.

I'd like to go back to the way it was, you shoot'em, you own'em. The shooter should get all of his no-shoot hits, if 1 no-shoot is in front of more than one shoot target you should be able to earn more than 2 hits on the no-shoot.

[Chriss Grube]

How many times can you kill the poor bastard...dead is dead!

[Nolan]

I'd like to go back to the way it was, you shoot'em, you own'em. The shooter should get all of his no-shoot hits, if 1 no-shoot is in front of more than one shoot target you should be able to earn more than 2 hits on the no-shoot.

Then in that case I want the 3 Alphas and 1 Charlie I shot on one target at the last match!

Nolan

[Flexmoney]

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

[caps]

Then in that case I want the 3 Alphas and 1 Charlie I shot on one target at the last match!

That'd work for me!

I'm also +1 on the 2 NS thing so we don't have "No Shoot Madness" like this thread says!

Edited May 15, 2006 by caps

[uscbigdawg]

My $0.02.

I say if you shot 'em, you bought 'em.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Makes sense to me. I always forget that rule.

Rich

You aren't the only one. I see that often enough that I'm pretty sure that not everybody is getting scored the same.

[johnhurd]

+1 in the column of "You shot em they are yours"

[Bigbadaboom]

I don't see a problem with only counting two hits on a no-shoot. You only count two hits on a shoot-target. Two hits on paper to score. In saying; "You shot 'em, You bought 'em" why can't I keep all 3-4 make-up shots on a shoot-target? Why should more negatives count but not more positives?

[SmittyFL]

I think multiple no-shoot hits only hurt the newer shooter. If you are competing at a certain level, one no-shoot is going to take you out of the stage against your competition, two no-shoots will damn sure take you out.

Allowing 5 or 6 or more no-shoot hits on a single target to count is only going to cause the newer shooter to zero the stage in my opinion. Yeah, I know they shot them, but why discourage them any more.

Plus I like the both arguments that you only get two hits per shoot target and from the practical side the no-shoot is plenty dead with two hits.

[johnhurd]

The rule fits right in with the dumbing down of America (reduce everything to the lowest common dominator) , I suppose that if you go bowling you only want to count the first 2 gutter balls, or only one bad lie in golf. (and no I don't participate in either of those games)

But this has been beat to death before, I am outta here.

[rtr]

Thanks for the info folks, it was in fact ruled as 2 no shoots, and 5 alphas with 1 mike. Seems that in this case the third no shoot isn't counted, thus I was unsure as to what happens to it. Even though there is no penalty it's still considered to have entered the impenetrable target, just seems like an illogical quirk in the rules.

Edited May 15, 2006 by rtr

[johnhurd]

Simple one of your edgers was the 3rd NS hit

[Jim Norman]

United States PRACTICAL Shooting Association

Emphasis on PRACTICAL

There is a BG known here as a Shoot Target. You shoot it and all the other BG, however in doing so, you hit a bystander or as it is known here a NS, 10 times. All the good you did by eliminating a BG is going to be lost. If you hit a NS or Good-GUy once you are porbably not in the best shape, hit him twice ou are in worse shape, but the wanton, indiscriminate firing of rounds downrange in the hopes of hitting a BG or Shoot-Target, where many of your rounds happen to hit a NS will be frownd upon.

In other words, you can neutralize a Shoot with two, but each hit on a NS is a black mark on your record and should be counted as such.

As to the new shooter being penalized. I have spoken to many new shooters and to a shooter they were insulted by this reasoning.

I am strongly in favor of all NS hits counting. Only the prescribed number of hits can be counted on a shoot or our scoring system fails completely. If we are only gong to count to NS hits, why do we allow a Per Shot penalty to be applied for the shooters toe touching the ground outside a fault line? What diference is there really?

Jim (I've got an opinion and I'm not afraid to speak it) Norman

[johnhurd]

And away we go!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SmittyFL]

I don't really care either way Jim, but just to be a pain in your side :-)

If you want to get practical don't you think the dumb SOB would get out of the way after he was hit once?...twice? After the third or fourth he would most likely at least fall to the ground do as not to be hit anymore.

And while we're at it, I think at the first shot all the no-shoots should get away from the shoot targets. There is a freakin' gun fight going on, if they don't move I'll assume they are collaborating!! (Sailor - Uncommon Valor)

:):)

Forgot to add, on a serious note:

You're probably right on your survey of the new shooters, that's how I was also. I still just hate to call 80 penalty points on a 100 point stage with the new folks.

[johnhurd]

so it would follow that misses after the rirst 2 would ease the scoring pangs too.

Edited May 15, 2006 by johnhurd

[mactiger]

You are only penalized for misses if all your hits aren't on the target. There is no penalty for "extra" misses--only for not getting the required number of hits on the target.

Troy