What Is "hiding"?

[Vlad]

A few threads over the years and some FS articles reference the idea of people "hiding" in some division or another. So far my gut reaction has been to interpret that as people complaining that the prize pool is not big enough in their division because some other people choose to shoot a different one. Or maybe it isn't about the prize pool, but about some odd notion of competitive advantage.

I am willing to accept that maybe my understanding of the phenomenon is flawed. So could someone please explain to me what this hiding is? No need to name names, but could someone give me an example of the behaviour of a shooter hiding? How does it benefit him/her? How does it harm other shooters or the sport?

I've been trying to wrap my head around the concept, and so far I'm failing to understand what people are complaining about what why they are complaining.

Help me out here.

[Flexmoney]

Shooter thinks..."Hey...Dave Sevigny is shooting this match in Production. If I shoot Production I will get my ass kicked. I think I'll go hide in Open."

[Wakal]

Some examples, with no names to protect the guilty:

My favorite is the guy who shows up to the Stat Shack window on Major Match Day, checks out the list of shooters, and then "decides" to download his SxI mags to the Clinton-preferred 10 rounds and shoot L10 instead of Limited. And then wins L10 and bitches to the prize table crew and the Match Director (at length) because he didn't win a gun like the top L did...

My second favorite is the guy who calls the Stats folks every few days asking who is showing up in which Division, and then arrives on Major Match Day with a nice new application carefully selected for a perceived lack of competition. And then gets his butt kicked because he didn't practice left-hand minor medium stack dot-sight holsterless Division enough

My third favorite is the guy who shows up every month in a primarily Limited/Open oriented club and downloads his gun to Clinton-preferred 10 rounds and runs Production since he knows that most folks shoot Limited/L10(SS)/Open...and then throws a fit when the club regulars decide that the month is "Production Month" and EVERYONE is running in his "no competition so I always win the 'next month's match discount' coupon" game... (as an aside, oddly enough the same folks who win Limited/L10/Open also win Production...what was that line about an arrow and a Native American?)

Alex

Edited May 6, 2006 by Wakal

[Merlin Orr]

Personally I think that everyone who goes to the gym to spar a little should demand to get into the ring with Mike Tyson - that way we can not be accused of "hiding". I'm sure that everyone feels that picking on the biggest bear in the bar is the only way to do things. After all, we all enjoy taking our ass whippings like a man, don't we....?

A man sure would not want to try to stay in the contest with someone of their own approximate skill level and have all the heavyweights be deprived of whipping yet another newbie (lesser skilled) persons ass. If they are a white belt they should still take thier whupping like a man - if it hurts they should just invest more time and money in the sport until they get to be more skilled and then they can beat up on the lesser guys too....

I think the no classes - run what ya brung will really help the sport of shooting. I am sure that the average Mr. Everyone will really be thrilled to know that he will never in his entire shooting life be able to win a damned thing or get any recognition whatsoever. THIS seems really fair and smart to me.

[Vlad]

Well Alex thank you for your examples. While I wouldn't be impress by Mr Hide you have described, and maybe I even understand how he might be gaining an advantage, how does he hurt others and why do other care?

If that behaviour bother you so much, instead of trying to dictate to everyone what division they should like, how about you change your own registration to that of Mr. Hide and beat him as his game regularly? That would teach Mr Hide that there is no place to hide, without actually screwing with everyone else who prefers to shoot those divisions.

You also keep on bringing up the 10 round limits. If you don't like them, then don't shoot those divisions. Most production shooters seem to like them just fine. They make the game HARDER by making you think about your stage plan more, by forcing more reloads you can't afford to fumble, and by placing more mags on your belt further and further back. Now, if you like to stick a friking subgun mag in your open gun and never have to reload, thats cool. But lots of people actually like testing their reloading skills

The fun of 10rd aside, it also allows Joe Everyman to come shoot. Looking at IPSC production, I note that it is becoming a 2 gun game with Glocks and CZ's and 9mm only. Sure other guns and calibers can play, but they don't win. That is not a way to grow a sport.

So pretty please, with sugar on top, if you don't want to shoot production or L10 that is your right, but stop trying to tell those who do that they are doing it all wrong.

[jhgtyre]

Hiding. There are so many M and GM's at our club you can get your ass handed to you in any division you choose! I have heard of a couple of shooters who "hide" on occassion in just the manner you guys describe. I do see your point though Merlin. If you could switch divisions and win something cool it might be fun. Around here it just wouldn't help all that much.

-The Third Indian from the left

[Wakal]

Vlad, deja vu.

Vlad, deja vu.

Well Alex thank you for your examples. While I wouldn't be impress by Mr Hide you have described, and maybe I even understand how he might be gaining an advantage, how does he hurt others and why do other care?

Don't put words in my mouth (or in my posts)...I didn't say that I cared. It amuses the hell out of me, but I shoot my own game and I don't care much what others do...although I will make fun of a guy who thinks Division-shopping is the way to win instead of...practice. I'm just another Master looking to move up (and still get beat), so don't worry about me

If that behaviour bother you so much, instead of trying to dictate to everyone what division they should like, how about you change your own registration to that of Mr. Hide and beat him as his game regularly?

See my third example. Although every time we did that, the whole club beat the guy

But he had been to Thunder Ranch (for the entire three-day class, no less) and no one but Clint could tell him anything. Although if you brought him Clint quotes that disproved his statements, he would ignore you

Most production shooters seem to like them just fine.

Make that "...most AMERICAN Production shooters..." and you might (might!) be correct. However, the REST of the world finds the Clinton-approved ten-round artificial limit to be amusing at best. One of the few times that I agree with IPSC's rule varients! Production should be factory stock...including the magazine. And I like the minimum trigger pull idea (although, in the interest of full disclosure, I shoot Production with a trick Vanek Glock 22 ).

Merlin wrote

we all enjoy taking our ass whippings like a man, don't we....?

Well, if you don't get thrashed you don't learn. Speaking as a 25-year student of the martial arts, of course. I've noticed that students who are exposed to competence (although I don't hold to the "abuse your student" theory, I do believe...based on thousands of studets over the years...that a student paired with others of similar skill does not learn as fast as students paired with superior skill) learn faster. Back on the shooting track, again from personal experience, I was motivated to learn a LOT faster when I was no longer the big fish in the little pond and was instead a minnow swimming with sharks

Some people have an ego problem and must "game" the system to make themselves feel better. Some people can take their thrashing at the score table and learn from it. Which trait is more admirable and thus worthy of emulation?

A

[blackdragon]

Ivan

[Vlad]

Well Alex thank you for your examples. While I wouldn't be impress by Mr Hide you have described, and maybe I even understand how he might be gaining an advantage, how does he hurt others and why do other care?

Don't put words in my mouth (or in my posts)...I didn't say that I cared. It amuses the hell out of me, but I shoot my own game and I don't care much what others do...although I will make fun of a guy who thinks Division-shopping is the way to win instead of...practice. I'm just another Master looking to move up (and still get beat), so don't worry about me

Sorry if I misunderstood you. If it is a source of entertainment even more reason not to complain about it

Most production shooters seem to like them just fine.

Make that "...most AMERICAN Production shooters..." and you might (might!) be correct. However, the REST of the world finds the Clinton-approved ten-round artificial limit to be amusing at best.

And I care because ...? I think their targets are funny shaped and their production holsters are interesting to say the least. That doesn't mean I spend a lot of time trying to change their ways. There are 2800 classifed production shooters. There are 3 regions that have that many shooters (total), right? I was refering to the American production division because thats the one with the limit, and those who shoot it seem to like it.

I just don't understand why people who don't shoot production and L10 keep on trying to change those divisions.

[Wakal]

I think their targets are funny shaped and their production holsters are interesting to say the least

I'm with you on the "production holster" thing, my friend, but check the IPSC rule book under "targets." Both the real target and that headless abomination are legal under USPSA and IPSC

L10 was a political Division, not an Equipment division, and that is my main fault with it. L10 was created, just like that headless abomination of a target, as a sop to the anti-gun crowd (who still, oddly enough, hate our collective guts). Production...well, I think that both US and IPSC has some very good ideas. I like US holster and gear (and long barrels; I shoot a G34 ), and like IPSC's idea of a magazine limit (if not that silly "refinishing" rule Vince likes so much). The "10 round" thing in US Production was also a political decision, not a equipment one, and should have been scrapped when the Assault Weapons Ban disappeared...and $12 17 round Glock mags were available to everyone again

This has been an amusing aside into What I Believe (although now I believe I'll have another beer), but back On Topic

I've been working major matches since 2000. I've seen, at every major match, people doing the "oh, if HE is shooting X then I will shoot Y"...with L10, it is FAR easier for those "hiders" to simply refuse to fill their Limited magazines (or fill them back up) and change based on the "hider's" opinion of who they can beat.

Who does it hurt?

The guy who shows up to play HIS game, not anyone else's, and gets beat by someone who doesn't give a fig (or a date, or an appricot for that matter) about the technical challenge of the Division but is only in it for The Prize.

Why do "hiders" hide? Why, for a better chance at winning. As long as we have prize tables, people are going to Division shop for a better chance at finishing in the big prizes! And that is a great intro to another What I Believe...heh heh...but not now.

A

[Vlad]

L10 was a political Division, not an Equipment division, and that is my main fault with it. L10 was created, just like that headless abomination of a target, as a sop to the anti-gun crowd (who still, oddly enough, hate our collective guts).

Just my local experience, but around here L10 is very popular with single stack guns. Almost no one shoots a widebody in L10. With the SS division prohibiting light rails (and seeing how almost every 1911 on local shelves has one) I think L10 will continue to be the home of single stacks for many shooters. Those folks who like their railed 1911's don't want to compete against 21 rounders in Limited and can not shoot in SS. Maybe you would like them to leave or maybe we should demand they buy new guns?

Production...well, I think that both US and IPSC has some very good ideas. I like US holster and gear (and long barrels; I shoot a G34 ), and like IPSC's idea of a magazine limit (if not that silly "refinishing" rule Vince likes so much). The "10 round" thing in US Production was also a political decision, not a equipment one, and should have been scrapped when the Assault Weapons Ban disappeared...and $12 17 round Glock mags were available to everyone again

Again ... Why do you want a 2 gun division? Just because you shoot one of the 2 guns, I think it would be rude to tell everyone else that their guns are worthless in that division. I know they are not, I know Sevigny would kick my ass with a muzzle loader, but new shooters do not know that. The other stupid side effect of the capacity left to the manufacurers are things like the SP01 with its extended mag. No really .. its ok .. we made it that way and put rubber around it .. its isn't an extention .. believe us! Give me a break! What would stop the next firm from making a gun with a 30 rounder and call it the standard length magazine?

And I realize you don't really care about it, but lots of state still have magazine capacity limits. Maybe we should tell all those shooters to drop dead too.

Who does it hurt?

The guy who shows up to play HIS game, not anyone else's, and gets beat by someone who doesn't give a fig (or a date, or an appricot for that matter) about the technical challenge of the Division but is only in it for The Prize.

So let me see if I get this straight ... Mr Hide chooses to shoot L10 to avoid Mr Leathem at some match. Mr Hide kicks my ass in L10. I am hurt how? If Mr Hide shot better then me and complied with the rules of the game, how is cheating? Mr Hide is better in "my" division, the scores don't lie. I don't give a pomegranate if he doesn't love the division, or if he was hiding. He competed in the division, by the rules, and he won. What exactly is the complaint? The guy who showed up to play HIS game, got beat by someone else who played the same game.

Why do "hiders" hide? Why, for a better chance at winning. As long as we have prize tables, people are going to Division shop for a better chance at finishing in the big prizes! And that is a great intro to another What I Believe...heh heh...but not now.

Heh .. no kidding. Why do we spend large amounts of cash on small bits of metal to modify our guns? For a better chance at winning. Why do practice? For a better chance at winning. Why do we argue over small stupid rules, or about what is a muzzle weight or a compesator? For a better chance at winning. But you think that a shooter should go to a match with his B class card, look at 14 GM's in his division and decide that despite all his efforts, practice, and spent money, he should play in that division anyway and loose like a man. As opposed to trying to win in a different division. What is the sense in that exactly? Just so he can see how he compares? He can do that by looking at the overall scores.

Edited May 6, 2006 by Vlad

[Wakal]

Vlad, I'm classified in and shoot all Divisions. I like Open best, but I even show up with a round gun from time to time. I shoot SAS too And please, buddy, pal, friend, don't lecture me about the socialist states that don't allow anything over ten rounds. After three years in Hawaii, I Get The Picture. HOWEVER, people in those states compete equally with everyone else IN THOSE STATES...in other words, don't penalize 46 states for the sake of 4

When the prize table allows CLASS WINNERS to go to the head of the overall finish line, "hiders" hurt across the board.

While two of my examples were Master class shooters, the third was a low-D

I've seen C and B class shooters show up to matches and play the "oh, I think I can take "X", since I'm B in L and C in L10..." And since class win gets the big prize too...there is a lot of motivation for "hiding" at bigger matches. This discussion shouldn't be fixated on the GM and M...it affects EVERYONE as long as we have that class win/big prize thing going on.

Damn, there I go getting close to my other (unranted) rant...heh heh....

Alex

[GeorgeInNePa]

I think their targets are funny shaped and their production holsters are interesting to say the least

I'm with you on the "production holster" thing, my friend, but check the IPSC rule book under "targets." Both the real target and that headless abomination are legal under USPSA and IPSC

L10 was a political Division, not an Equipment division, and that is my main fault with it. L10 was created, just like that headless abomination of a target, as a sop to the anti-gun crowd (who still, oddly enough, hate our collective guts). Production...well, I think that both US and IPSC has some very good ideas. I like US holster and gear (and long barrels; I shoot a G34 ), and like IPSC's idea of a magazine limit (if not that silly "refinishing" rule Vince likes so much). The "10 round" thing in US Production was also a political decision, not a equipment one, and should have been scrapped when the Assault Weapons Ban disappeared...and $12 17 round Glock mags were available to everyone again

This has been an amusing aside into What I Believe (although now I believe I'll have another beer), but back On Topic

Hey! That's my line! (see sig)

I've been working major matches since 2000. I've seen, at every major match, people doing the "oh, if HE is shooting X then I will shoot Y"...with L10, it is FAR easier for those "hiders" to simply refuse to fill their Limited magazines (or fill them back up) and change based on the "hider's" opinion of who they can beat.

Who does it hurt?

The guy who shows up to play HIS game, not anyone else's, and gets beat by someone who doesn't give a fig (or a date, or an appricot for that matter) about the technical challenge of the Division but is only in it for The Prize.

Why do "hiders" hide? Why, for a better chance at winning. As long as we have prize tables, people are going to Division shop for a better chance at finishing in the big prizes! And that is a great intro to another What I Believe...heh heh...but not now.

A

Let me state that I like USPSA Production the way it is, if we used IPSC's mag rule and not the silly 10rd limit, it would be even better.

Edited May 6, 2006 by GeorgeInNePa

[Vlad]

I've seen C and B class shooters show up to matches and play the "oh, I think I can take "X", since I'm B in L and C in L10..." And since class win gets the big prize too...there is a lot of motivation for "hiding" at bigger matches. This discussion shouldn't be fixated on the GM and M...it affects EVERYONE as long as we have that class win/big prize thing going on.

Damn, there I go getting close to my other (unranted) rant...heh heh....

So you are saying it is about gaming the prize table, not the glory. By now I am assuming that the rant you are avoiding is something about the corrupting powers of the prize tables, or their distribution. I don't know enough about the subject to have a strong opinion either way, but I'm guessing most prize tables are provided by donations from companies that want their name out. The class winners spend money too so as far as I can see it works towards everyones advantage. At most it has has Lewis system problem, where I get bit all the time because I'm ususally not good enought to get in the top tier but to good to get into the middle ones. Oh well.

Again ... is a shooter playes by rules and wins a class/division, I think he deserves his win, and whatever prizes. If he is sandbaging then we need to start kicking people up in classes based on match wins. Seems simple enough to me, and a lot more reasonable then forcing everyone to shoot a certain division or changing the rules.

BTW, you and I agree on lots of things, I just think that your proposed direction of 'man-on-man", screw artifical limits, etc, would hurt the game in the long run. The game started there and didn't have that many shooters, it has grown while adding divisions. And you still haven't told me how you solve the problem of production becoming a 1 or 2 gun division.

[Wakal]

No rant no rant no rant...

I'm guessing most prize tables are provided by donations from companies that want their name out. The class winners spend money too so as far as I can see it works towards everyones advantage

To an extent. I do prefer to reward performance, but the current class system is easy to manipulate (speaking personally on that one, however inadvertently). Everyone at the match spent the same entry fee BUT the top performers usually spend a lot more in ammo. Funny how that works. A major match that I had the pleasure of being heavily involved with went to a straight "random draw" prize table...oddly enough, some major shooters refused to return after the first match since there was no "loot" while other major shooters showed up after the first one because it was a damn fine match and great fun to shoot.

Some folks forget that this game is supposed to be FUN, and chase "loot" instead. I like winning goodies as much as the next guy, but I'd rather have a good match and win some shockbuffs rather than shoot like crap and win a gun.

Of course, the "random draw" prize tables can also end up with very entertaining "BS-fodder" for the long haul. I know of a major 3-Gun match late last year which taught us that the Open Match Winner gets a box of parts yet the SECOND place Open guy wins a gun...heh heh...years of ribbing there...

Again ... is a shooter playes by rules and wins a class/division, I think he deserves his win, and whatever prizes. If he is sandbaging then we need to start kicking people up in classes based on match wins

True enough, BUT HQ very rarely plays that way. I submitted a formal package with proof, according to the rules (both then and now), that a classified (foreign) shooter was shamelessly manipulating the system to bring home the big loot at Area and National matches. Hell, the shooter would have won the NEXT highest class and finished well in the class above that, in several occasions. Nothing was done, despite many complaints (from more than just whiney old me). If HQ refuses to act, then the system is broken or pointless, depending on your point of view.

Since the classification system is the MAJOR source of MONEY for USPSA, it will never go away. Can't blame 'em, either. Who can turn down free money?

BTW, you and I agree on lots of things

I find most folks on this forum to be reasonable people, even when they disagree. Mostly

I just think that your proposed direction of 'man-on-man", screw artifical limits, etc, would hurt the game in the long run. The game started there and didn't have that many shooters, it has grown while adding divisions

"Man on man, run what you brung" is more of a Old School Jeff Cooper sort of thing. As Vince Pinto once told me (before we started quoting LtCol Cooper, after which Vince dropped that line like a live and spoonless grenade), we have to protect our heritage. However, the game has moved on a bit. Personally, I'm fine with Open and Open Lite (err...Limited...). I think Production is perfectly decent and a good Division, but not out of race holsters and not with 10-round magazines.

And you still haven't told me how you solve the problem of production becoming a 1 or 2 gun division.

Ummm...we ARE. Check the stats (you will have to look at two years ago, since HQ couldn't run the usual survey correctly last year (maybe they were counting all that Classifier money) ). Open is pretty much a straight SxI pattern game, Limited is pretty much SxI with some Paras and a few Glocks, US Production is much like International Production at Glock/CZ with some other toys here and there... Wheelguns are pretty much Slick and Weasel or bust... This sport fosters innovation, and most serious shooters will switch to a better mousetrap if there is one. Look at the drift from trick single stacks to comp'ed single stacks, to Aimpoints on comp'ed single stacks, to Paras, Caspians, and now SxI...we are "due", historically speaking, for a new innovation. I was hoping for a gas gun, and even ordered one of the Pachmyrs before those went vaperware. Hmmm...a gas gun with 1911 controls and grip angle, that accepted Para Ordnance or SxI magazines...oh yeah...

Back on topic (before the next/next beer)..."hiders", of any Class level, Division shop to give themselves a better shot (no pun intended...oh, OK, I admit it, it was intended) at the cool prizes or for a better chance at a high finish (but mostly, I suspect, for the Prize). Our quest for the prize should not make us lose our heads, though...the game is supposed to be fun first and profitable second.

Although I'm still waiting on the profitable part

Alex

[tightloop]

To some of those that HIDE...it is like gaming the divisions...they find out which one is potentially the weakest and then shoot that one...I understand it, just do not condone it..you are never going to rid yourself of baggers, so don't even worry about them...just shoot your game and screw them...

[Kory]

I just realized that the strategy of hiding only works if it is not popular.

If everybody did it, there wouldn't be anywhere left to hide.

[JFD]

Edited because I give up on this subject.

Edited May 8, 2006 by JFD

[BritinUSA]

I am willing to accept that maybe my understanding of the phenomenon is flawed. So could someone please explain to me what this hiding is? No need to name names, but could someone give me an example of the behaviour of a shooter hiding? How does it benefit him/her? How does it harm other shooters or the sport?

There are some examples of the hiding thing in this thread already so I won't address those. I would like to answer (or attempt to) the last two questions.

How does it benefit him/her?

The shooter gets a prize not based on ability but based on the lack of ability of the other shooters in that division.

How does it harm other shooters or the sport?

There is no harm directly but for some of us that like to be competitive in the true sense of the word, it can be offensive that someone removes themselves from a division because they are afraid to get beaten.

I only practice once a week (about 100 rounds). I am never going to win Nationals or any large match because of that. But I still compete because I want to see how I compare against those that practice a lot, plus I enjoy shooting, I enjoy the social side of it too.

A 'Hider' does not wish to compete fairly, his goal is to get a prize by any means, a 'Hider' is the same as someone who deliberately screws up their classifier stages so they keep an artificially low classification. I use the word 'his' in this paragraph because I have never, ever met a woman who would do this. Says a lot about the fairer sex (bless 'em).

In a nutshell there are those (the majority) that compete for the sake of competition, to measure themselves against their betters and see how they perform. It's not about the prize for those people, it's about that feeling of doing better than expected, of shooting that particular stage better than a GM and walking away from the match with head held high. Then there are those (tiny minority) that want to win at any cost, they will put a trophy up on the shelf that they won by nefarious means, perhaps they shot in a slim division or they got away with a few penalties that the RO missed, perhaps they claimed a double hit when they knew they had a miss. For us it would be a hollow victory and we would feel empty inside, for them they crave the award and to hell with their conscience.

They are in the minority and I think we spend too much time on people that simply don't matter.

This is just my opinion and other can feel free to disagree.

As to the whole division thing, I think we have too many. But I don't know the correct solution You can't please all the people all the time, so if one or more divisions were eliminated then there would be a number of people who would see their investment go up in smoke.

Edited May 6, 2006 by BritinUSA

[Ron Ankeny]

I used to actually care what division other competitors chose, but then I figured out no matter the class or the division that I shot, those who beat me simply out performed me on match day.

[Vlad]

How does it benefit him/her?

The shooter gets a prize not based on ability but based on the lack of ability of the other shooters in that division.

What the hell? Did he actually shoot better then the rest of the people in that division? Yes? Then he won based on his ability. That's like saying Jerry M hides in Revolver and only kicks ass because everyone else sucks. It is insulting to the guy that won based on skills he practiced, and it insulting to everyone else shooting the division by telling them they suck so bad that one runaway from a different division can beat them at their game with little or no effort.

How does it harm other shooters or the sport?

There is no harm directly but for some of us that like to be competitive in the true sense of the word, it can be offensive that someone removes themselves from a division because they are afraid to get beaten.

Wait .. so the complaint is that he doesnt want to play in your sandbox? Thats only a skip and a hop away from saying that everyone who doesn't shoot your division of choice are just losers who can't stand up the real men.

Jesus .. Merlin had it right. Based on this logic you think that everyone who ever boxed should go to a sparing match, see Tyson in the ring and not change divisions. Hell, why is he using that sissy helmet and plastic thingy in his mouth? He should take his beating like a man!! As far as I can tell everyone who complains about hiders really just complains that there aren't more people shooting their division as to make their prize pool bigger. In fact, the complains these hiders are also getting prizes they didn't deserve (according to some) also boils down to the same "problems" of not enough prizes in your favorite division.

Sorry, but I call BS, as far as I can tell complains about hiders getting prizes, are just complains about not getting enough prizes. Either way, kinda the same attitude, the hiders want more prizes and go shoot a different division to get them, taking a chance to get their asses handed to them in that division, and the complainers want the hiders to stay in their division so they can get more prizes. Either way, I'm not impressed.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Vlad

[George]

I shoot what I like, Period

This is not a separate issue from sandbagging in classes, it's only a sub-set of that. Let's call it what it really is, "lateral sandbagging" ;-)

[jhgtyre]

Let's call it what it really is, "lateral sandbagging" ;-)

The Hit the Nail on the Head award goes to.... George!

-ld

[SinistralRifleman]

I wonder what I am then when I shoot in classes that put me at a deliberate disadvantage. If I want to shoot with the light on my Glock I have to shoot in Open. I carry the gun like this every day so its to my benefit to shoot with it on there. I use limited length magazine, and a carry holster.

I shot open in 3 gun for a while with a dot sighted pump action shotgun...no speed loaders. If I managed to beat anyone in the same division, I considered myself to be doing ok.

After all, we all enjoy taking our ass whippings like a man, don't we....?

Well I shot the fort Benning 3 gun last December in Open. My only true open gun was my rifle with dual optics and a bipod. My Pistol was a "limited" gun, and the shotgun a Tactical class gun except for the optic on it. I shot against the best people in the country with equipment that put me at a disadvantage in that division...unsuprisingly I came in last place. I still had a good time, shooting and hanging out with people, and I learned some things.

I think the no classes - run what ya brung will really help the sport of shooting. I am sure that the average Mr. Everyone will really be thrilled to know that he will never in his entire shooting life be able to win a damned thing or get any recognition whatsoever. THIS seems really fair and smart to me.

What will help people to get involved, and I am actively doing this, is putting on free intro to competition shooting classes to take away the intimidation factor. I tell people flat out that unless they are funded and all they do is shoot for a living, and have innate talent most of us are incapable of acheiving, they will never "win." Winning can be defined as achieving one's personal goals an objectives. Even if someone comes in last place every time, if they learned something about their own abilities or equipment through shooting competitively, they will not have "lost". The new shooters' goals, and I dare say the goals of most of us who fall somewhere in the middle most of the time, should be to have fun and better ourselves through this discipline.

Attendance at local multi-gun and pistol matches is steadily rising...

[MikeFoley]

I wonder if USPSA ever went to one Classification for all 6 divisions what the participation in them would be? I think the term "hiding" brings to mind the Limited GM who can't come close to HOA, but is still classified as M in L10, so he shoots Limited at all the local matches and L10 at all the majors hoping to win High M in L10 (even though he is truly a GM). If you can be a GM in Limited, you can be a GM in Limited 10, and should be if you are going to play that game. Reloads are not forcing great shooters to hide in Limited, that I am certain of. If you earned GM, then you would be a GM in all the divisions, and everyone would shoot what they like. I think we need the classification system, and the different divisions, but not to be classified differently in them. Does anyone know why we are classified in all the different divisions? A better term than "hiding", may be "avoiding".