What Is A True Ipsc "practical" Target?

[uzi]

There was a Texas Star at the A8 last year and I have shot them at a previous A5.

hello - what happend at USA national? Any Texass star?

[Chuck D]

One could make an argument for flopping and dropping targets but I've never seen a "bad guy" perform cartwheels as a way to evade getting shot at.

If someone has...feel free to let me know.

"Too many target types un-levels the playing field."

Couldn't have said it any better.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Chuck D

[XRe]

I've never seen a "bad guy" perform cartwheels as a way to evade getting shot at.

You obviously haven't seen enough movies....

[Vlad]

One could make an argument for flopping and dropping targets but I've never seen a "bad guy" perform cartwheels as a way to evade getting shot at.

Do you think that bad guys may be weaving and ducking? If you think that might be possible, ask a friend to stand in place and duck and dodge. Then set a T* next to him and make it spin. Look at your friends head. Look at a plate on the T*. See any relation?

[JFlowers]

Chuck D and Loves2Shoot,

How does "Too many target types un-level the playing field"? If anything it should logically do the opposite by not allowing an expert on one target type to dominate. Instead the shooter with the best overall shooting skills should dominate in an environment with lots of variation.

Plus, we keep confusing ourselves, the Texas Star is NOT a target. The only allowable targets are the two paper, four poppers, and two metal plates. The Texas Star is a moving presentation of targets, those targets being typically 5 metal plates.

Can the Texas Star be used in such a way that it creates an unfair advantage to someone? Sure, but that can be easily resolved with a few paint marks so that the Star is setup the same way every time. If the Star is setup the same way every time, then I don't think that the inclusion of barriers, no shoots, hard cover, etc makes the target any more or less fair. The exact same argument goes for swingers, movers, clamshells, etc as well.

Is the Star a practical presentation of targets? Well, you can come up with yes and no arguments all day long based on your definition of practical. It does present an accuracy challenge that forces the shooter to deal with a small target moving in a predictible manner. Does that have practical application? I would think that it would. I can come up with several scenerios that would require a shooter in a practical situation to make a shot on a small moving target.

Personally, I don't think any "carnival" target presentation is a bad thing if it challenges the shooter to shoot better, think and react faster. Otherwise we would be shooting at perfectly static targets all the time and you can make logical arguments that static stationary targets are not very "practical" either.

See you on the range,

James

Edited April 11, 2006 by JFlowers

[38superman]

I have no quarrel with the Texas Star as long as it is positioned such that I can see the whole thing.

I recently shot a stage where it was behind a barricade and only two plates were visible at a time.

To make it more interesting, the star was activated by a popper and was already spinning when engaged.

It makes me wonder what is next.

Do we put it completely behind a barricade and just cut a few holes in the plywood?

I don't mind any stage that challenges my shooting skill.

However, I think there comes a point where it's not my skill being tested, it's my luck.

Tls

[Bigbadaboom]

I've never seen a "bad guy" perform cartwheels as a way to evade getting shot at.

I've never seen an 8" round flat steel bad guy before either.

I've found that in most cases, those who oppose the T* and T+ just don't like the challenge and don't do very good when engaging them.

I say make up as many different target display systems as possible and let's play. As someone else stated; Amoeba targets aren't "Practical" either. Heck, metric targets aren't "Practical". Where's the arms and legs? They score a round that only touches the perferation at the outside of the D-zone and that isn't even a graze. It's a competition not a training exercise.

Ya'll wait till I get my "Bobbing" 8 X plate system figured out.

I

Do we put it completely behind a barricade and just cut a few holes in the plywood?

Tls

AAHH!! I can't wait to set up a stage at the next local match.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[shred]

I can clean a TX Star under 3 seconds, and I like cool and different props, but I still think the funky props should be somewhat limited in major matches-- if experience-with-the-prop is a major factor in shooting success on it, then it's not measuring shooter skill, it's measuring shooter-experience-with-the-prop, which is a poor way to rank shooters if the prop is not so common it is ubiquitous or so rare as nobody has experience with it.

Obviously some props have become 'normal' over the years-- swingers, bobbers, and such are common and it's expected that shooters have experience with those props.

Are beartraps and stars getting to that level yet? Are there enough of them out there in the US yet that they are a reasonably common feature in club-level matches?

[Chuck D]

"I've found that in most cases, those who oppose the T* and T+ just don't like the challenge and don't do very good when engaging them. "

Not true Sir...simply not true.

"I recently shot a stage where it was behind a barricade and only two plates were visible at a time.

To make it more interesting, the star was activated by a popper and was already spinning when engaged.

It makes me wonder what is next. "

Fair assessment....

"Do you think that bad guys may be weaving and ducking? If you think that might be possible, ask a friend to stand in place and duck and dodge."

That's what floppers, droppers and swinging targets are for....

"I still think the funky props should be somewhat limited in major matches-- if experience-with-the-prop is a major factor in shooting success on it, then it's not measuring shooter skill, it's measuring shooter-experience-with-the-prop, which is a poor way to rank shooters if the prop is not so common."

Same could be said for the Moving Target event at the Bianchi Cup. If do not have access to one...your score WILL suffer regardless.

"hello - what happend at USA national? Any Texas star?"

Ah...the unanswered Million Dollar Question.....

Edited April 11, 2006 by Chuck D

[JFlowers]

I can only speak locally, but I know leading up to SC State 2005 we saw a Texas Star at just about every local match for close to two months. I think it was the same Stars owned by two individuals rather than club-owned.

Shred, while I have argued for the Star and other target arrays, I do agree with you on one point. The array, target, prop should be a test of skill, not an indicator of experience with that particular item. So they do need to be used with forethought as you get to Area, National, and matches above.

This is one of the things that make this board better than 95% of the web, while we have several opposing viewpoints in this thread there has not been a single personal attack, no name calling, just a straightforward discussion of the pros and cons of the subject.

James

[kruger]

I think that most of the problems with, and opposition to, the T* are due to the fact that it is a new item.

The T*, in my opinion , has great practical merit, and that it has as much a place in IPSC as 50 yard standards. A bobbing, weaving, and cartwheeling target is no less practical than a target at 50 yards that stands still while you shoot at the targets next to it.

Respectfully,

Mark Kruger

[AikiDale]

This is one of the things that make this board better than 95% of the web, while we have several opposing viewpoints in this thread there has not been a single personal attack, no name calling, just a straightforward discussion of the pros and cons of the subject.

James

Oh Yeah!? You observant, polite, rational gentleman. Your kind probably have reasoned opinions too!

[Jim Norman]

The Texas* is a fine presentation IF and only IF it is placed in a Manner that removes the luck factor from the final presentation of the last plate.

Example, Popper or other activation device causes the Star to start its movement. How quickly you get to the position where you can see it is a question of your ability to run on a COF, no different thatn any other move from point A to Point B situation involving a swinger ot a Drop-turner. What would be unfair is to positin the Star in a mmanner where at the end of the stage, when the Star is at rest a plate may be hidden from view. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have the Star hidden from the view of the shooter when he is at the activation point and to give him other targets to engage on the way to the Star. What is wrong is to set up the star so that you can only see the plates as they move past a very narrow port and when it is at rest that one or more of the plate would cease to be available.

As to the presentation of the plates, someone else related it to headlights bobbing across a field or a running, ducking a weaving target. Works fine for me. We do have one, we use it about twice year. More gets boring, less and the cost is not justified.

Jim Norman

Edited April 11, 2006 by Jim Norman

[Bigbadaboom]

"I've found that in most cases, those who oppose the T* and T+ just don't like the challenge and don't do very good when engaging them. "

Not true Sir...simply not true.

"I recently shot a stage where it was behind a barricade and only two plates were visible at a time.

To make it more interesting, the star was activated by a popper and was already spinning when engaged.

It makes me wonder what is next. "

Fair assessment....

"Do you think that bad guys may be weaving and ducking? If you think that might be possible, ask a friend to stand in place and duck and dodge."

That's what floppers, droppers and swinging targets are for....

"I still think the funky props should be somewhat limited in major matches-- if experience-with-the-prop is a major factor in shooting success on it, then it's not measuring shooter skill, it's measuring shooter-experience-with-the-prop, which is a poor way to rank shooters if the prop is not so common."

Same could be said for the Moving Target event at the Bianchi Cup. If do not have access to one...your score WILL suffer regardless.

"hello - what happend at USA national? Any Texas star?"

Ah...the unanswered Million Dollar Question.....

I stated "In most cases". I hear it all the time. "This thing is going to kick my butt" "Man, I bet that's hard" "Oh Crap, a Texas Star, I always do bad on those. I better take all my mags with me to the line."

The problem isn't the T*, it's those who set themselves up for failure by predetermining that they are going to do bad on it. Then, I've seen brand new motivated, positive shooters with a "Can-Do" attitude clean it quick.

[EricW]

Gentlemen, before this gets out of control, the correct nomenclature is:

TX*

T* is the Tennessee Star, which is a new target designed to stir even more political unrest.

T+ is a terminal on a circuit board. If you are referring to the Texas Windmill, the correct nomenclature is TX

Edited April 11, 2006 by EricW

[Chuck D]

"The problem isn't the TX*, it's those who set themselves up for failure by predetermining that they are going to do bad on it."

I've NEVER said that...I said that I thought it was a carnival target with no practical value that does NOT test the shooter's skill level in similar fashions that other shooting tests do.

You suggest I'm afraid of the TX* which I am not. I can miss ANY target with great regularity ! I question the TX*'s value as a tool in which to test ALL shooters in a match regardless of classification.

The question still begs an answer...have one of these things ever been used in a USPSA National Championship?

Edited April 11, 2006 by Chuck D

[Ron Ankeny]

This topic has been beaten to death, but I want to put two misconceptions to rest. First off, the idea that those folks who dislike the TX* in higher level matches are incompetent at shooting the star is unfounded. If you will look at previous threads about the star you will see there are world class shooters who believe the star should be confined to Level One and Level Two matches. I am certainly not a great shooter, but I have never lost a stage because of a TX*, period.

I would also like to point out that just because a given target presentation is "legal", that's not a reason to use it. A drop turner or a swinger painted like a Zebra with hard cover (I have seen that) is certainly legal, but who in their right mind would incorporate that into a big match?

As long as a TX* is a legal target presentation in the US, whether or not it is used is up to the match administration. If they use one, I'll shoot it and my personal bias will not dictate the speed at which I clean the plates. If they choose not to incorporate the star, I'll shoot whatever they stick in front of me.

BTW, the basic shapes of legal plates are now round, square, and rectangular in various sizes. I wonder when some one will mix the sizes, shapes, and weights of plates so the star not only behaves differently depending on the location of the last plate shot, but also on the weight of the last plate shot? Too bad we can't cut holes in them like swiss cheese.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[bayoupirate]

Hey tlshores,

To answer your "What's Next?"

I heard that the guys here in area 4 wanted to put a TX* on a trolley that would be activated by a popper, come into view and disappear behind a wall.

That's what's next.

[Ron Ankeny]

I heard that the guys here in area 4 wanted to put a TX* on a trolley that would be activated by a popper, come into view and disappear behind a wall.

I would laugh if I thought you were kidding.

[EricW]

This thread is hillarious!

We need to have a contest for the most evil presentation of the TX*. Photographic/Video proof required of course.

My suggestion: have the shooter engage the TX* during halftime at a soccer game, while flying a kite and wearing a bhurka. Mr. Roger's trolley optional, but worth extra bonus points.

Yeah, that'll do it.

[Vlad]

Eric .. thats freshman level of evil. Me .. I'd take a star that gets started by a prop .. and then cover it with black plastic sheet, except for about a foot wide circle in the center, which would allow you to see the spining arms, but not the plates. Then I would paint 2 of the arms a different color then the other 3 and declare that those 2 are penalty plates and they shouldn't be shot. Also the only way to know you knocked the plates off is to look through the space at the bottom of the soft cover sheet, which is about 1ft off the ground.

Now take this whole assembly and place it behind to NS swingers, one from the top and one from the bottom which are swinging at different rates. The course of fire is shot weak hand only while holding a rope which keeps the 1ft whole in center of the soft cover open. All targets must be engaged while the shooter is balancing on a unicycle.

Edited April 11, 2006 by Vlad

[38superman]

You guys are amatuers.

You attach the star to an aircraft engine and start it up (idle speed only, we don't want the plates to fly off and get launched into space).

The plates will be painted three different colors.

At the start signal you will toss a pair of painted dice into a box.

Any color that comes up on the dice is a no shoot.

Colored flood lights will change the colors of the plates as they move.

The shooter will face up range and shoot over his weak side shoulder using a mirror to aim.

Tls

Edited April 12, 2006 by tlshores

[mlmiller1]

Alex, not sure if you are still reading this or not but I kind of wonder if uspsa headquarters doesn't like the star due to the fact it is almost impossible to assign FTE penalties to. As long as a person shoots 5 shots, you can't say they didn't shoot at a particular plate. This could bring up problems scoring. If you can't penalize people, it might not be a good target to have at a bigger match. I personally enjoy a star, moving or still, even partially covered but there are obviously ways to set them up where they are more fair for higher ranked shooters than the rest of us. However, as you know, I'm game to try any shooting challenge, & I don't mind if you laugh at me while I'm missing!

Side note, Alex, you & Liota stay safe & we hope you guys get back to Texas soon!

MLM

[bayoupirate]

Ron,

I assure you that I was not joking.

On a side note: I think one reason to dislike the TX* from a match director's point of view is that no other Target Array/Presentation produces so much profanity (and sometimes laughter) on the range. This is supposed to be a family friendly sport.

[Liota]

Ray,

You, apparently, have not experienced the steeel picket fence. That thing has caused more foul language to come out of my mouth than any other prop in the sport.

Liota