10.5.6 And "facing Uprange" Starts

[SteveZ]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. I've got some thoughts on my own but would like to hear others ideas if they were RO'ing and a competitor did the following:

If at the start signal, a competitor (while facing uprange)

draws...keeps the muzzle of their firearm pointed within 1 meter and

THEN turns, are they DQ'ed under 10.5.2 or is 10.5.6 an exception to

10.5.2 during the draw/holster process (even if the shooter is facing

uprange when they draw)?

[Gregory_k]

Someone Get his bag, he is going home.

[Bigbadaboom]

The start procedure should read "Turn and then draw and engage."

If the start procedure reads correctly then I D.Q. them. If the start procedure reads "Facing up range. Upon start signal draw and engage." Then I don't have an answer to the question because I wouldn't R.O. a stage with such a start procedure.

Also, rule 10.5.6 reads "Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet

during drawing or re-holstering." I take this as rearward of the Competitors feet. If they are facing up range and the muzzle poinst rearward of their feet then they are not breaking the 180. If they draw while facing up range and the muzzle points uprange at all the it is pointing "Forward" of their feet. So, get me a Blizzard while you're visiting the D.Q.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[SteveZ]

Ok....but is 10.5.6 an exception to 10.5.2?

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the

muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90

degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case

of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the

firearm is loaded or not.

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward

beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet

during drawing or re-holstering.

Edited April 5, 2006 by SteveZ

[LPatterson]

I would say the 10.5.6 quantitifies rearwards in 10.5.2. If the WSB does not say turn then draw then the shooter should be legal.

[Bigbadaboom]

Modified post above. Substance added. ^

Edited April 5, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[SteveZ]

I'm not sure how the wording in the WSB would change the "safety" of the act. "On signal, turn and then draw and engage" vs "On signal, draw and engage" is at the most a procedural error for not following the stage procedure. Either the act is safe or it's not ...in which case it would be a DQ.

Ok...then for the sake of discussion. Lets suppose two different shooters. One has an "FBI cant" holster and the other has a race holster (pointed slightly forward).

On a "facing downrange" start, the FBI cant shooter has a 2 second draw. He draws his gun (gun is in his hand) and for a period of 1 second, the muzzle of the gun is pointed uprange (behind the shooter) breaking the 180 but pointed at the ground lets day 1 foot behind the shooter (less than 1 meter from the shooter but is allowed per 10.5.6???) and then comes forward crossing the 180 line.

The race gun shooter does a "facing uprange" start...he also has a 2 second draw. At the start signal, he draws his gun (gun is in his hand) facing uprange and begins to turn....for a period of 1 second, the muzzle of the gun is pointed uprange 1 foot from the shooter and then the gun crosses the 180 line as the shooter continues to rotate toward the first target.

In both cases the gun is pointed 1 foot uprange from the shooter for a period of one second....neither is more or less safe then the other. Why would the first shooter not be DQ'ed where the second shooter would?

[Gary Stevens]

The key word is "rearward". This applies to a competitor who is facing downrange and is allowed to holster a gun in a forward cant holster. Other than that, the shooter is DQ'd for breaking the 90 (180).

Gary

[SteveZ]

The key word is "rearward". This applies to a competitor who is facing downrange and is allowed to holster a gun in a forward cant holster. Other than that, the shooter is DQ'd for breaking the 90 (180).

Gary

so you're saying that a competitor using a FBI cant holster facing downrange...will be DQ'ed when drawing their gun because the gun will be pointing 'rearward'? 10.5.6 says drawing and re-holstering...not holstering AND it says rearward BEYOND 1 meter. Seems to me the shooter as a "grace zone" of 1 meter about them on the draw.

Edited April 5, 2006 by SteveZ

[ima45dv8]

Facing downrange, readward cant on the muzzle - no DQ while drawing gun provided it does not point beyond 1 meter rearward. What I *have* seen is the muzzle/front sight catch on the top of the holster and cause the shooter's wrist to roll, and the gun point further uprange. That's an instant Bus Ticket (DQ).

As Gary said this applies when the shooter is facing downrange. If I were RO'ing a shooter who was facing uprange and they allowed their muzzle to point uprange during the draw, that wouldn't be "rearward" as allowed in 10.5.6. DQ.

[SteveZ]

As Gary said this applies when the shooter is facing downrange. If I were RO'ing a shooter who was facing uprange and they allowed their muzzle to point uprange during the draw, that wouldn't be "rearward" as allowed in 10.5.6. DQ.

...then whats going to change when the wording of 10.5.6 falls in alignment with IPSC rules ...which read:

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.

note the replacement of "rearward" with "uprange".

Edited April 5, 2006 by SteveZ

[ima45dv8]

You've got me there, Steve. I haven't read the IPSC version of the rules, and usually don't until they are adopted by USPSA. Too much for a feeble mind like mine to keep straight.

If we do in fact adopt the change of "readward" to "uprange", the shooter won't hear me say STOP. They'll just hear a whimper as I pray they don't shoot me or anyone else.

*I particularly dislike this proposed change with respect to shooting indoors over concrete floors. Not that outdoors over dirt can't produce a bouncer, but on hard concrete a loose round is going to get real interesting, real quick.

[Bigbadaboom]

The key word is "rearward". This applies to a competitor who is facing downrange and is allowed to holster a gun in a forward cant holster. Other than that, the shooter is DQ'd for breaking the 90 (180).

Gary

so you're saying that a competitor using a FBI cant holster facing downrange...will be DQ'ed when drawing their gun because the gun will be pointing 'rearward'? 10.5.6 says drawing and re-holstering...not holstering AND it says rearward BEYOND 1 meter. Seems to me the shooter as a "grace zone" of 1 meter about them on the draw.

No, that's not what he is saying.

Here's what I added to my first response to this question:

Also, rule 10.5.6 reads "Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet

during drawing or re-holstering." I take this as rearward of the Competitors feet. If they are facing up range and the muzzle points rearward of their feet then they are not breaking the 180. If they draw while facing up range and the muzzle points uprange at all then it is pointing "Forward" of their feet. So, get me a Blizzard while you're visiting the D.Q.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[SteveZ]

Also, rule 10.5.6 reads "Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet

during drawing or re-holstering." I take this as rearward of the Competitors feet. If they are facing up range and the muzzle points rearward of their feet then they are not breaking the 180. If they draw while facing up range and the muzzle points uprange at all then it is pointing "Forward" of their feet. So, get me a Blizzard while you're visiting the D.Q.

understood...but see my above post regarding the IPSC rule which, baring any tweaking from the USPSA, will become the USPSA rule...so 10.5.6 will eventually become:

10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering.

uprange is uprange whether he shooter is facing uprange or downrange....there is no "rearward" anymore. The point of all of this in regards to safety is that a shooter facing downrange who draws with this muzzle pointed within 1 meter behind him....is no more safe or less safe than a shooter facing uprange who points the muzzle within 1 meter infront of him. The action is the same in both instances....only the words are different.

Edited April 5, 2006 by SteveZ

[Bigbadaboom]

We were posting at the same time. I don't go by the IPSC rule book and if USPSA changes to this I will probably stop shooting the sport and I will definitely stop R.O.ing.

Oh, by the way, I refuse to R.O. shooters who use rearward can't holsters. I value my feet.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[ima45dv8]

We were posting at the same time. I don't go by the IPSC rule book and if USPSA changes to this I will probably stop shooting the sport and I will definitely stop R.O.ing.

Oh, by the way, I refuse to R.O. shooters who use rearward can't holsters. I value my feet.

I understand your concern. Big, ugly, nobody-would-want-them-but-me feet they may be, but they're the only ones I have. If it's someone I don't know VERY well, I just stand a little further to the side while they draw.

[richardschennberg]

After the draw, a competitor is allowed to face in any direction as long as the muzzle is pointed downrange.

However, when the procedure is to start facing left, right, or uprange, the competitor MUST turn first. For left/right starts, the shooter only needs to begin his turn before drawing, but when starting uprange the shooter must turn more than 90 degrees before drawing the gun. The RO MUST stop the competitor as soon as the gun breaks leather with the shooter still facing uprange, and should DQ the competitor. Be polite but firm. Drawing before turning is inherently dangerous and very scary to other shooters and to spectators.

[Flexmoney]

The start procedure should read "Turn and then draw and engage."

If the start procedure reads correctly then I D.Q. them. If the start procedure reads "Facing up range. Upon start signal draw and engage." Then I don't have an answer to the question because I wouldn't R.O. a stage with such a start procedure.

- You can't issue a DQ for breaking a procedure.

- 10.5.6 is the applicable rule...Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet during drawing or re-holstering.

- The word "rearward", in this case was meant to mean "up-range"...and the gurus at IPSC have decided to further clarify that. (USPSA should clarify too...one way or another.)

- My read on the drawing rule is to pretend there is an imaginary circle (think hula-hoop) at 1m that surrounds the shooter. If you are in the process of drawing the gun (which, to me, includes turning and presenting to the first target) then that 1m is your safety bubble...regardless of which way you face.

[SteveZ]

- The word "rearward", in this case was meant to mean "up-range"...and the gurus at IPSC have decided to further clarify that. (USPSA should clarify too...one way or another.)

- My read on the drawing rule is to pretend there is an imaginary circle (think hula-hoop) at 1m that surrounds the shooter. If you are in the process of drawing the gun (which, to me, includes turning and presenting to the first target) then that 1m is your safety bubble...regardless of which way you face.

Looks like Flex and I are on the same page. While someone popping a gun out of the holster (facing uprange) would make me really nervous as a RO....the rules seem to indicate that as long as they keep the muzzle in the 1meter safety bubble (like that term!)...they're within the rules. If I was sitting on an ARB panel and a shooter was DQ'ed for this and cited these points...I'd have to rule in favor of the shooter.

[Paul B]

+1 on Flex also as this "bubble" is how I have always interpreted the rule.

One thought in addition to the others is when does a "draw" actually occur? If its when the gun is first released from the holster then there would be a lot of procedurals being given for El Presedente's because just about every really fast shooter I've seen has their hand on the gun and some slight rise from the holster as they are turning (no real tilt to the target till they get further around). If the draw lasts till the gun is up on target then there would not be a procedural.

I have a lot less problem with this type of "start of a draw" in an El Prez than I do with the more tactical types using inside the belt holsters on their hips and drawing from almost around their back when I'm behind them ROing. This is what widens my eyes.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wasn't there a picture in the Front Sight, years ago, of Barnhart doing the El Prez that showed him with the gun out of the holster, just begining the turn? The gun was above the holster, but pointed straight down.

Does anyone else remember this?

I would agree with Flex that if the gun is out of the holster, but not pointed out of the 1 meter mark, before the turn, you'd be ok.

[iweiny]

+1 on Flex also as this "bubble" is how I have always interpreted the rule.

One thought in addition to the others is when does a "draw" actually occur?

I think this is where I am really starting to question the rule. This very issue came up at our RO class this past Sunday. While I was shooting the Student RO said he would have DQ'ed me for my turn and draw. After the instructor agreed with him I mentioned the 1 meter rule and the instructor said that did not count in this instance. I have thought long and hard about this issue and the only thing I could see is if I get the gun clear of the holster before I am fully around. (BTW other students in the class agreed tha the gun was safely pointed down at the ground, within the 1meter during the draw.) I spent most of the day pretty shaken up by this because I am pretty safety contious. In all of my thinking I don't really see anyway that any of us are not DQ'ed for this.

The other aspect is that most of the "gamer" holsters actualy cant the gun back such that it points forward of the shooter. So when they are facing uprange the gun points uprange! If this rule only covers holsters with the "FBI" cant then I would think all the top shooters and indeed any shooter with a "forward" cant holster would be DQ'ed...

Anyway, I don't want to argue with anyone but I don't know what to do... I thought about posting a video of my draw and trying to do it a couple of different ways since I think that would make the points better but my wife has the camera at lady's camp... So... All I can do is talk...

Ira

[DMS42]

If the competitor is facing uprange with his pistol in his hand, I would DQ him. I would not care if it was the start of the stage during his draw or later in the stage. Think of it this way: The shooter has shot at an array and moved but decides to go back to shoot a missed target and on his way back turns around and is facing uprange. To me it would be the same.

I'm also not real fond of FBI rearward cant. It's been a long time since I was an RO, but I seem to remember some rule about how far back your pistol could point with a rearward cant. I'd quote a rule, but I can't find my rule book right now.

[driver8M3]

If the competitor is facing uprange with his pistol in his hand, I would DQ him.

you dont say anything about where the gun is pointed? i dont care where the shooter is facing, only where the gun is pointed.

i'm sure you've seen shooters running uprange while pointing the gun downrange. are you saying you'll DQ them for this?

[Bigbadaboom]

- You can't issue a DQ for breaking a procedure.

I know that. I think I may have worded the post where it could be misconstrued. I would D.Q. the Shooter if they were facing uprange and the muzzle was also facing up range. My point was that I would not R.O. a stage where the stage procedure started facing up range but did not dictate "Turn and then draw" so therefore would not D.Q. anyone for anything in that instance.

I would not D.Q. them for not turning before drawing, I would D.Q. them for breaking the 180.

I'm still not sure if I worded it where it can be easily understood.

Also, when I'm standing behind a Shooter where I have to be able to keep my eyes on the gun at all times my measurement of 1 meter will be very, very short.