10.5.6 And "facing Uprange" Starts

[Gary Stevens]

Our rules have not merged with IPSC rules as of yet. If they do, then we will cross that bridge when we get to it. We are still operating under the 2004 version of the rulebook and the rearward language appears in the rule.

If you don't believe me, and apparently some don't, I suggest you contact NROI for an official ruling. I think I know what it will be.

Gary

[Shooter Grrl]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. I've got some thoughts on my own but would like to hear others ideas if they were RO'ing and a competitor did the following:

If at the start signal, a competitor (while facing uprange)

draws...keeps the muzzle of their firearm pointed within 1 meter and

THEN turns, are they DQ'ed under 10.5.2 or is 10.5.6 an exception to

10.5.2 during the draw/holster process (even if the shooter is facing

uprange when they draw)?

10.5.2 is the dq rule you use if someone draws before turning. Use logic, if I'm facing uprange, and I draw my gun, is my muzzle past the 90 degree mark or uprange? Hell yeah.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not.

[SteveZ]

10.5.2 is the dq rule you use if someone draws before turning. Use logic, if I'm facing uprange, and I draw my gun, is my muzzle past the 90 degree mark or uprange? Hell yeah.

well then using the same logic...any one facing down range...while drawing allow their muzzle to point uprange...will be DQ'ed too....hell yeah!

What escapes me in all of this is why is it "safe" for a shooter facing down range to allow their muzzle to point up range on the draw...but "unsafe" for a shooter facing uprange...to allow their muzzle to point uprange on the draw (both break the 180)....and how does the interpretation of "rearward" change from 10.5.2 to 10.5.6?

I've bounced this to JA for his view on those points alone.

[Shooter Grrl]

Your confusion is unnecessary young grasshopper. Our US rule is very clear - 10.5.6 says REARWARD.

well then using the same logic...any one facing down range...while drawing allow their muzzle to point uprange...will be DQ'ed too....hell yeah!

BTW, I 100% agree with that statement Steve. The problem is, with the introduction of Production Division, many new shooters bring their rearward cant holster with them to shoot from. I was under the impression that 10.5.6 is only there to allow them to continue to play. I personally, before it was added, sent people home for breaking the 180 while drawing from one of those bad boys.

[OPENB]

Jay Worden taught my RO course, and specifically stated the 1 meter rule applied no matter what direction the shooter/gun was looking. 1 meter bubble all around. We can all have opinions, but we only have 1 rulebook.

[Shooter Grrl]

Yeah well, you can draw it, but how the heck ya gonna turn without breaking the 90?

[SteveZ]

I wanna thank everyone for keeping this "civil" and offering their opinions. Its interesting that certain RO instructors say there's a bubble...while others say there isn't.....and there is multiple interpretations to the meaning of "rearward"

...after this is all over...we can discuss the meaning of "is"

[Flexmoney]

Yeah well, you can draw it, but how the heck ya gonna turn without breaking the 90?

Just keep the muzzle pointing down, don't rotate the muzzle to the "press out" yet.

[Gary Stevens]

Jay has recently been released from a 6 month stay at the RO re-education camp. Here he spent many joyful hours being shown the error of his ways and opening his mind to a more enlightened view of the world.

[Flexmoney]

I happen to have some footage that may prove relevant...

Photo 1 - Hand on gun.

Photo 2 - Gun comes UP out of the holster.

Photo 3 - Careful...(no, the finger isn't in there )

Photo 4 - Gun starts to rotate "muzzle up"...out of the 1m bubble...but is not breaking the 180

Photo 5 - Just shows continuation

Many of you here are saying you would have DQ'ed the shooter at photos 2 & 3 ?

[Gary Stevens]

Sorry Flex, we can't consider photographic evidence US 11.1.5

[Flexmoney]

Sorry Flex, we can't consider photographic evidence US 11.1.5

Note the date on the pics, Gary...I think I snuck that in under the red book.

(that photo evedence thing was a green book thing, wasn't it??? )

[shred]

(that photo evedence thing was a green book thing, wasn't it??? )

And only applies to Arbitration Evidence.

Any other time the use of video or photos is not prohibited, so in theory, an arb witness could view the pictures and then testify as to what he saw, though it would be an unusual committe that put any weight in that.

[Shooter Grrl]

YES - I would have DQ'ed this shooter in pic #2.

[Bigbadaboom]

I would have D.Q.ed for sweeping the hell out of the upper thigh. Unless it's the angle the photos were taken from.

[Shooter Grrl]

Sweeping is okay on the draw Daniel But drawing your weapon while still facing uprange is big bad no-no!

[Gary Stevens]

You can sweep yourself on the draw from a holster or reholstering, 10.5.5.

Not saying it is smart, just saying it is sanctioned by the rulebook.

Gary

[SmittyFL]

All you anxious to DQ. Are you saying it is not possible to draw your gun while facing up range and turn around 180 degrees without breaking the 180?

Edited April 6, 2006 by SmittyFL

[Gary Stevens]

Not I, because the rule refers to the muzzle, I think it would be possible. My point is there is no 1 meter circle, that one can point up range with impunity. I don't know that any who have replied that they would issue a DQ if a person broke the 180 while facing uprange on the draw were indicating that they were anxious to DQ someone. A question was asked and we gave our understanding of the rule and what we were required to do to maintain safety in the situation described.

Gary

Edited April 6, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[SmittyFL]

Maybe anxious was a strong word. Photo 2 for example, supposing the gun is pointing straight down, does not warrant a dq in my opinion though he did draw while facing up range.

Granted, I'd rather people not do that, but don't think it deserves a DQ.

Actually there was a very similar incident at TN the year before last. There was a thread on here I think about it, but I couldn't find it. But it was the exact senario. Up range start and the shooter drew before turning and was DQ'ed. I wasn't the RO and can't speak for him. It didn't appear to me the shooter broke the 180, however the RO was closer than I was. But regardless of whether he did or didn't, it sparked this same discussion after that match.

My only point is drawing you gun while facing up range isn't a DQ by definition, where it sounded on here like some felt it was.

Again, don't get me wrong; I'd really rather folks didn't do that.

[Gary Stevens]

Kind of like EOD work, it can be done, if you are real careful

Gary

[SmittyFL]

EOD T-Shirt

"If you see me running, try and keep up"

[Bigbadaboom]

When is the draw complete then? In picture #3 (Again, if the angle of the picture isn't fooling me) he's got his finger on the trigger and the muzzle pointing at his thigh. I would D.Q. him and let it get argued or whatever because that is dangerous as hell. I don't see him breaking the 180 but I would consider the draw complete once the gun clears the holster and that gun is clear of the holster. Maybe I'm too safety conscious to be an R.O.

[SteveZ]

Ok kids...here's the answer straight from JA himself (thread teaser: Gary Stevens won't be surprised!!! )

I posed two questions to John....the definition of "rearward" in the rule book and how it applied to 10.5.6 and the "safety" aspect of FBI cant holsters allowing the shooter to draw point the muzzle uprange vs a race holster shooter facing up range drawing their gun...where both shooter maintain their muzzles within the 1 meter "bubble".

1) how can "rearward" as used in 10.5.2 be different than the use of "rearward" in 10.5.6. Rearward as used in 10.5.2 implies "uprange". IPSC rules have addressed this in their latest cut of the rule book replacing "rearward" with "uprange".

JA--10.5.2 relalates to breaking the 90 rule, it stipulates rearward if there should be a back stop, if there is no back stop, then it clearly states uprange. A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ.

SZ_Note...I think John probably means break the 180 with their muzzle. As others have pointed out...it doesn't matter what direction we face...it matter what direction our muzzles pointing. So there you have it. Facing up range, drawing before breaking the 180 (or more specifically allowing the muzzle to break the 180) is a MDQ. End of Story.

2) how is this act of a shooter facing uprange drawing and pointing their muzzle 1 foot in front of them (less than 1 meter per 10.5.6) and turning any less safe than a shooter using a FBI cant holster facing downrange, drawing and pointing their gun 1 foot behind them (less than1 meter per 10.5.6). The "action" between the two shooters is the same.

JA--Question 2 is a two part, part one is answered above, part two is

10.5.6 applies to shooters facing downrange, the 1 meter radius was put in for those with the FBI cant or similar holsters, this gives a safety area for the muzzle pointing uprange during the draw, it also allows the RO to clear the area of the draw from competitors, so should the gun go off, no major accidents should occurr.

SZ_Note...while John didn't specifically address the safety difference between the two actions...I think I know where he's coming from. If the USPSA allowed forward facing shooters to draw...and turn under 10.5.6...it wouldn't be long before people started pushing the envelop harder and faster...and sooner or later something BAD is going to happen...and when it does...it isn't going to be pretty. John also said that all of the RO instructor have been brought into line on this one.

My guess is when we get the new rule book...you won't be seeing the word "uprange" anywhere in 10.5.6!!

So there's the answer for all of you. I hope we all learned something on this one...I know I did!

[Flexmoney]

I would have D.Q.ed for sweeping the hell out of the upper thigh. Unless it's the angle the photos were taken from.

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing from a holster or re-holstering.