10.5.6 And "facing Uprange" Starts

[Flexmoney]

In picture #3 (Again, if the angle of the picture isn't fooling me) he's got his finger on the trigger and the muzzle pointing at his thigh.

Tough to tell from the photo (#3), but I can provide some insight, since I was there.

- The finger was not on the trigger (though the photo doesn't show that clearly).

- The muzzle wasn't pointing at any part of the body by that time. It points between the two legs...and, in front of the third.

[Bigbadaboom]

In picture #3 (Again, if the angle of the picture isn't fooling me) he's got his finger on the trigger and the muzzle pointing at his thigh.

Tough to tell from the photo (#3), but I can provide some insight, since I was there.

- The finger was not on the trigger (though the photo doesn't show that clearly).

- The muzzle wasn't pointing at any part of the body by that time. It points between the two legs...and, in front of the third.

Looking at the photo, I thought that could be the situation. Thus, I stated "If the angle of the photo isn't fooling me."

I still call the draw complete once the gun clears the holster though.

[Shooter Grrl]

Ok kids...here's the answer straight from JA himself (thread teaser: Gary Stevens won't be surprised!!! )

JA--10.5.2 relalates to breaking the 90 rule, it stipulates rearward if there should be a back stop, if there is no back stop, then it clearly states uprange. A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ.

SZ_Note...I think John probably means break the 180 with their muzzle. As others have pointed out...it doesn't matter what direction we face...it matter what direction our muzzles pointing. So there you have it. Facing up range, drawing before breaking the 180 (or more specifically allowing the muzzle to break the 180) is a MDQ. End of Story.

JA--Question 2 is a two part, part one is answered above, part two is

10.5.6 applies to shooters facing downrange, the 1 meter radius was put in for those with the FBI cant or similar holsters, this gives a safety area for the muzzle pointing uprange during the draw, it also allows the RO to clear the area of the draw from competitors, so should the gun go off, no major accidents should occurr.

My guess is when we get the new rule book...you won't be seeing the word "uprange" anywhere in 10.5.6!!

So there's the answer for all of you. I hope we all learned something on this one...I know I did!

I LOVE BEING RIGHT

[schoonie]

.....A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ.

Okay now I'm totaly confused.

Where is the consitency? Are we talking about the muzzle direction or the relative position of the shooter's body to the gun and the range?

From above statement extracted from Steve's post, JA uses the words 'should be' not 'is'. Which is it? How many stages have we shot where the shooter runs/moves uprange to engage a target. See the Todd Jarrett video from the recent Florida State Match for stage 8(or 9) or the videos Sharon made of squad 14 on the same stage.

Face down range with a FBI rear cant holster and draw, the muzzle points uprange briefly during the draw and this is allowed.

Same shooter faces uprange, draws, but does not rotate the muzzle uprange, just turns behind the gun to face downrange and he gets DQ'd!

Open gunshooter with a forward canted holster better not face uprange and even think about drawing!

Why is the draw process any different than moving uprange with an unholstered gun? The shooter still has to keep the muzzle downrange!

Here's the old thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=16286&hl= and yes my positioned has evloved.

Edited April 7, 2006 by schoonie

[Bigbadaboom]

Stage #9 and I was R.O.ing him just like I R.O.ed several other shooters who did the same thing. They were all very safe and tended to keep their muzzles pointed more "Down Range" than those who tried to run sideways or backwards (2 were D.Q.ed for the 180 at that exact point).

I'm not in agreement with the statement "A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ." but I also don't agree that you should be able to draw your gun "While" facing up-range no matter where the muzzle points. It's just too "on the line" between safe and not safe for my liking.

[caps]

Where is the consitency? Are we talking about the muzzle direction or the relative position of the shooter's body to the gun and the range?

This same subject was discussed at the IPSC forum last month and it all looks pretty clear to me now.

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3129

[Flexmoney]

Amindon's response doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I can't fault him, as we have been talking about this for 3 pages of posts, he is just going off of one email. He is just getting into first gear and we are already up to highway speed.

1. The "FBI cant" has been brought up a few times as being the basis of some of this stuff. I don't really know what an FBI cant is. I do know it's not mentioned in the rule book.

Some holsters cant forward a bit, some cant backward. I doubt we can ever have any holster that is straight up and down all the time...that just isn't a practical expectation.

If we have a holster that cants backward, then...when the shooter is facing down range and draws, they will be breaking the 180. Makes sense, right? After LAMR (start of the stage), they will have a hot gun in their holster that is breaking the 180, and as they draw it up out of the holster, it will have the trigger exposed while it is breaking the 180. (We give some leeway here...the 1m rule.)

By the same token, when we have a shooter that has a forward cant holster (many race holsters are setup this way), after LAMR they will be breaking the 180 with a loaded gun in the holster when they are starting a facing up-range stage.

If it makes sense to have a 1m "bubble" for one, then it makes sense to have it for the other? If it doesn't make sense at all, then the rule needs a drastic change.

2. The direction a shooter faces has nothing to do with muzzle safety. The direction the muzzle faces has to do with muzzle safety. None of the UGH rules have any mention of the direction the shooter faces. It's a non-factor. It is all about the muzzle. As it should be.

Here is a shooter (attached pic) with a common holster for our sport, that is technically a few degrees beyond the 180...

If we don't have the 1m bubble, then we are going to have to DQ a lot of shooters.

Cant is cant.

The rule needs to read so that we have the 1m bubble...after LAMR and thru the draw stroke. Or, we need to get rid of the 1m rule altogether (which means we pretty much have to throw out a LOT of different start positions...which would suck).

Daniel asked a good question...when does the draw end. I'm not sure there is an all-encompassing answer there. For the majority of draws I would say it ends when the gun is presented to the target (engaging). Just clearing the holster is cutting it too close, I think. And, there is no good way to make a call on that anyway. In the pictures I showed, we have some still frames from a video clip. In real speed, the time between picture #1 and picture #4 is about 0.25 seconds. My eyes aren't slow...and, I don't think there is any way I could draw a line within that 0.25 seconds and say "this is where the draw ended".

[Flyin40]

Ok kids...here's the answer straight from JA himself (thread teaser: Gary

JA--10.5.2 relalates to breaking the 90 rule, it stipulates rearward if there should be a back stop, if there is no back stop, then it clearly states uprange. A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ.

How about a stage where you have to start from the front of the course and go to the back, running a course backwards. I'm am going to turn around and keep the gun facing downrange and run backwards while I am facing uprange. I did this at a major match last yr and so did all the shooters I seen shoot the match.

Has to be muzzle of the gun, not the person.

Flyin40

Edited April 8, 2006 by Flyin40

[Paul B]

JA--10.5.2 relalates to breaking the 90 rule, it stipulates rearward if there should be a back stop, if there is no back stop, then it clearly states uprange. A competitor should never be allowed to face uprange with a gun in their hand, it should be an automatic DQ.

In the real world most competitors will have their hand on their gun as they begin to turn around on an EL PREZ for example. The more experienced competitors will actually already be raising the gun out of the holster as they turn (muzzle still pointed down to the same point as if it were in the holster).

Interpreting the above quote literally and we should have a lot of DQ's at any major match with a turn around stage. For example, if all the CRO's do start calling this, it will thin the ranks of the best shooters and allow more opportunity for those of us less gifted shooters.

Seriously, it boils down to two things:

1. The draw is not when the gun moves 1/2 inch out of the holster. That is just the start of the process that proceeds through rotation and ends up with target engagement.

2. The rule has to be interpreted as one applying to muzzle control not whether there is a hand on the gun. Maybe the "bubble" approach is not the right term, but the concept of a one meter radius on the ground is a good one.

The other alternative may be to eliminate these kinds of starts, which is unacceptable to me.