EricW Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I just realized something while driving back from the post office. The most unfair target in the sport isn't the TX*, it isn't the windmill, it's... ...the lone swinger that disappears behind hardcover. Show up a second early or a second late to the shooting position and you're going to sit there for the duration. You're stuck with no chance to generate points while the target does a u-turn. If there's anything that's randomly biasing stage times by +/-2 seconds the lone swinger is it. I guess if I talked on my cellphone more while driving I wouldn't have time to think about this stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 ... with a no shoot and hard cover on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Yeah, hardcover painted like a Zebra's behind. And let's not forget about the wind bending the head backwards so you can't even shoot at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Head shots that don't get changed between squads. Nothing but a glob of pasters for the last shooters. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 That is SO cheap! Targets are what, .40 each?. They could even put up a slightly less used target for cryin’ out loud. I could make a good hate rant out of this topic. David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Nothing but a glob of pasters for the last shooters. Heck, I have shot targets that started out in that condition. I am not kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 It makes me mad enough to just score them as two A hits. FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Think stage design, not match management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I realized how unfair swingers/bobbers are when I saw the supersquad shoot a short course with two swingers (activated by one bobber) at the World Shoot. Max Michel cleaned everyone's clock on the stage and Saul Kirsch had to wait more that 0.5 s longer for the same two swingers It's not just the fact that you have to time them, but also the fact that they can be so inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Front Man, Thats what I'm counting on! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Nothing but a glob of pasters for the last shooters. Heck, I have shot targets that started out in that condition. I am not kidding. Hey Ron, when have you been to a match in North Texas?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Front Man,Thats what I'm counting on! Ivan Ivan, If I get preloaded in the PO'd position every shooter gets A's! Shoot fast! FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If there's anything that's randomly biasing stage times by +/-2 seconds the lone swinger is it. I fail to see how swingers are unfair at all. If they are well designed and maintained, then they present the same challenge to every shooter. They are not random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 FrontMan, Speed is everything! Accuracy means nothing!!!! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) If you've got access to a stop plate like they use at the Steel Challenge, set up a swinger so it hits the stop plate at the end of the first full swing and activate the swinger with a full sized popper. Plug the stop plate into your timer, press the start button and shoot the popper. Do it 5 times. You'll be surprised how inconsistent a swinger is. Nolan Edited March 24, 2006 by Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I noticed at last years Nationals. The swinger in the doorway ( Stage on top) Shot it Limited double tapped it, Alpha Chuck, and went on my way. Open gun same thing Alpha mike? I'm not sure what had changed? Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) If there's anything that's randomly biasing stage times by +/-2 seconds the lone swinger is it. I fail to see how swingers are unfair at all. If they are well designed and maintained, then they present the same challenge to every shooter. They are not random. Yes and no. Open swingers are fine. Swingers with partial hardcover that have accompanying targets to shoot at: fine. The lone swinger with partial hardcover is what I'm talking about. Think about it. Show up to the port 1 second "too soon" and you're committed to sit and wait. 1 second too late and it's the double whammy. I'm not bagging on the prop. What I was trying to infer was if you're going to present this type of prop, make sure that there's other stuff to shoot at while the prop is doing whatever it does. It's unfair to make a shooter maintain a position with no points to generate while they're there. Make sense? To me, this is the very definition of a "circus prop." Edited March 24, 2006 by EricW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Got to luv the circus stages! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 If you've got access to a stop plate like they use at the Steel Challenge, set up a swinger so it hits the stop plate at the end of the first full swing and activate the swinger with a full sized popper. Plug the stop plate into your timer, press the start button and shoot the popper. Do it 5 times. You'll be surprised how inconsistent a swinger is.Nolan Other variables there are the popper, shot placement, wind, power, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Using an old loosely hinged full sized popper set to fall across a cable that pulls a stick out from under the swinger counterweight was the worst offender that I remember. Depending on how the popper settled into it's stop position determined how quickly it fell even when the shots were in the center of the calibration circle. The other big factor was the cable position. If the cable is attached to the bottom of a solid stick the popper has to fall much farther to activate the swinger. Then if the swinger is reset for the next shooter with the cable at the top of the stick the popper doesn't have to fall as far to activate the swinger. Next is how far the stick is set under the counterweight which also affects cable tension/height. Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Several items Nolan, The activator stick should be marked with a top/bottom mark so that it always get set the same, It should also have a location mark so that the stick is in the same place each time. Two, stretch a cable across two suprorts at a given height so that the popper hits it in the same place in its travel each time. Regardless of the poppers condition (assuming it works) it should be the same for all. As Eric stated also give the shooters something else to do so that they aren't standing waiting if they are early or late, fast or slow. It makes the stage much more fun. We have people that come in, hit the activator, do a static or two then the mover and are going away before others even reach the port, Each divisoin and each class sees a stage differently. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Several items Nolan,The activator stick should be marked with a top/bottom mark so that it always get set the same, It should also have a location mark so that the stick is in the same place each time. Sticks suck. The metal bars with a hinge in the middle work much better and are more consistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 I have the swinger trigger worked out. Easily tunable for the amount of force it takes to activate it. Personally, I feel that the rules should expressly prohibit poppers from being used to activate other targets. It's a Rube Goldberg technique that never should have gotten started. I sat a watched a squadmate get hosed at A-1 on a popper activator. Pressure pads or similar spring-loaded devices that activate within 1.0 seconds or less should be the standard for activators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I thought you were half-joking when you brought this up. I was going to share the most unfair target I've seen in two year...the one I failed to engage on a stage last Sunday. I see the point (I thought) you were going after...either you get the target, you wait, or you take the mikes...with a (guesstimate) 2 second cycle, that makes it a bigger hurt than a lot of the other stuff that gets called "circus". I certainly don't think swingers are unfair in any way. They just aren't easy for everybody and the way we'd like to think of things happening. Moving targets sure don't make it easy to stay on the sights and feel in control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Kyle, We're on the same page. I was kind of joking when I started this, but I did want to make a point. For all the ranting and raving over "circus" props, nobody talks about swinger timing and activation. And this applies to any target that gets activated for that manner. I have ideas for solutions. They're not exactly cheap, but major matches should be a test of a shooter's time managment skills and shooting skills, not his or her good fortune that the sun, moon, and stars aligned for advantageous prop activation. I think that clubs putting on Level II and higher matches should *strongly* consider the use of pressure pad activators, other spring-loaded trip devices, and electronic devices as the only means of prop activation. If USPSA is going to advertise "Safe Fun Fair", then let's make sure it's actually fair. FWIW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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