Misses Are Ok, For Me

[cz75ipsc]

This post drifted from a quote by Jake in this thread

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32915

My post got so long and drifted that I made it into a new thread.

You cannot shoot at the top level of the game (especially in Open) and have penalties.

I agree, to a certain extent. But I was FRICKING AMAZED when I saw Saul's World Shoot 05 DVD, and it had a stage that the top Open shooters shot in 9ish seconds, I recall. Then Max shot it real fast-like, had a miss, and WON THE STAGE! Sorry for the caps, guys, but I was just blown away. At the top-most level of competition in the biggest event in this sport, you CAN miss fast enough to win. This just goes against everything I've been taught.

That really got me thinking. I'm quick on my feet and also on the trigger. I'm also prone to taking risks, and therefore getting penalties. I've shot some stages extremely fast, almost out of control, and won them. And I have placed high in the stage results with a miss, when I've shot the stage quickly. I did this especially a few years ago.

Then I started to read these forums, and was convinced I had to slow down and always shoot well in control. Also, my shooting peers noticed how I shot, and every single one of them told me to slow down, start shooting 100% clean. So I did. It really wasn't easy, since I'm extremely anxious after the beep (who isn't?). I did feel more in control with my speed, but the "feel" was just awful, as I constantly had to struggle with my mind wanting to go faster. The result: my scores actually dropped. The small increase in points (around 90% to 95%+) didn't compensate for the lost time. In addition, the shooting experience was unpleasant, as I had to shoot far from my natural speed. Again, reading the forums I became convinced, with time, I would start to shoot faster and still get 95%+. Didn't happen. I guess I could have practiced more, but it just didn't feel right, having to struggle with my mind. Just before the biggest match of the year (our nationals) I started to shoot at my natural speed and just forget about everything else. Just shoot how I feel like.

I shot on the edge, like I naturally do. I had a few misses, but the times were very good. I also had several stage wins, some heads above the competition. The result: I placed higher than I've ever placed, only a few percent behind the match winner, and this was the highest level of competition I've ever faced.

Now my long-term-goal is to shoot at my natural speed, where I'm comfortable, and with extensive dry- and live fire bring my shooting skills up to where I don't miss as often as I do now. It may sound stupid but my long-term goal is NOT to start shooting clean, but cleaner. I believe that FOR ME, shooting 100% clean means shooting too slow. I'm not encouraging anyone to do this. I know the general consensus on this forum is the opposite: shoot slowly, in control, and the speed will come with time. I'm going to attack the problem from a different angle.

We come a full circle back to Max, and what he has said, discussed in this post:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32552

He states that he doesn't mind if the person gets D's and misses as long as their fast because it's easier to teach accuracy to a fast shooter than it is to get a slow shooter to speed up.

That is how I'm going to attempt to improve. I'm an ISTP, and recognize myself from the description given my Brian on the same post. And I know a few shooting peers who are very alike me and could very well benefit from doing it this way.

I know Max didn't set out to miss on that stage in World Shoot. I believe he missed because he shot at his normal speed. I for one believe Max has thought this out and decided he is better off getting a miss or two in a match, as long as he consistently gets good times and mostly solid runs. I know the previous statement will be misinterpreted in many ways, so I'll emphasize: He doesn't want misses. If he gets one, it's just a by-product of his competition-winning speed. Not that he has misses very often. And again, he WON THE STAGE ANYWAY.

Having said that about Max, I'd like to bring up Blake Miguez. He's one of the best shooters in the world. Yet he gets misses on a "regular" basis. As I recall a good shooter saying, he shoots "on the edge". Yet he wins competitions. I believe it's a choice of speed for him, and a very good choice at that.

Any thoughts on this? I know I'm really going against the grain here, but it just feels natural.

[Loves2Shoot]

"...sights crystal clear, that dictates the speed at which you shoot the target..." Quote from TJ

Sounds like if you think you aren't shooting to your natural speed you just need to focus on improving you seeing.

It is amazing how fast you can see if you let yourself. I've seen .1 splits with an open gun "crystal clear." Freeing the mind part, it isn't easy.

[Bigbadaboom]

cz75ipsc, Me too. I know exactly where you are coming from.

You must learn to "see" fast not "shoot" slow.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[cz75ipsc]

Thanks for the insightful replies L2S and BBB.

I know exactly where you are coming from.

I knew there had to be ppl like me on the forums, since I've encoutered numerous shooters with similar issues IRL.

you just need to focus on improving you seeing.

I was aware of this but it's nice to have someone articulate it. Now onto the more difficult issue: how to improve your seeing? I know this has been discussed endlessly on the forums, but I don't recall reading any specific excercises for improving your vision. We all know how to dry-fire and live-fire, but are we working on the less-important things here, such as draw and reload speed? Or is dry and live fire already a good excercise on the speed of vision?

[PaulW]

hmmm, well I don't like the mindset that any penalty is "OK". However while growing in the sport you eventually have to find out how fast is to fast. This was a huge leap for me. I found out how fast I could go without getting out of control. I bet Max could shoot that same stage, with the same time without the miss. I win more stages locally, not by having the best time, but the fewest mistakes. A lot of guys can hose, but shoot fast and still get the points is the key to long term success.

[Loves2Shoot]

DRILL:

Just shoot bullets and watch what is going on, forget about caring where they go. Just focus on being aware of as much as you can. Double plugging helps me a bunch.

Then once you get the "Matrix" style vision (you'll know what I mean when it happens) apply getting into that awareness when you do all your shots...

... or as BE says, see something new with each shot.

It isn't easy, desire is going to try to get in the way and distract you.

[Jake Di Vita]

Yes Max won a stage with a penalty....but did he win the match?

Would you rather win stages or win matches?

I guarantee to you that if you e-mail Max and ask him the same thing, his advice will be the exact opposite to you.

You shouldn't let a sub-par performance (even though it had a good result) influence the way you shoot.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Jake Di Vita

[Steve Moneypenny]

I think maybe instead of shooting slower you need to be aware of what your doing when you shoot at "your natural" speed.

Tension and pressure decrease visual acuity making. stress makes you actually see less and when shooting and pushing it where that fun factor is for most new shooters you do not see nearly as much.

Jakes goal, which is directly derrived from max's teachings is not about winning a 4-6 stage local match it's about winning a national match.. winning area match after area match not placing first at one and 15th at the other but to be in the top 2-3 shooters in every match.

Seeing faster is the key to shooting points faster.

[Bigbadaboom]

I feel the need to qualify my position on this issue.

I do not believe in "accepting" misses or penalties. I believe in not fearing them in the progression of my skills.

[Flexmoney]

When I read threads like these, it is crystal clear to me that the shooter is basing their foundation on speed.

And, it doesn't matter if that is a fast or a slow mindset. Fast and slow are both derived from speed. They are the same thing.

Then I started to read these forums, and was convinced I had to slow down and always shoot well in control. Also, my shooting peers noticed how I shot, and every single one of them told me to slow down, start shooting 100% clean.

Yep...I think that is how most tend to think of it. They have the idea that to shoot cleaner, you have to shoot slower....which is still "speed based" thinking.

Thinking "fast"...thinking "slow"... Those are predetermined decisions that you are making before you shoot. And, they are conscious thoughts (which are limiting).

I would like to suggest that you replace the fast/slow mindset with a desire to "just shoot clean". But, even that implies limitations. (Replacing speed with accuracy.)

Perhaps, the better approach isn't to tell yourself a thought, but to visualize the exact desired outcome?

If you can visualize the desired outcome, and you if you can open up your awareness as you shoot, your body will notice if your performance is meeting up with the desired outcome. I'm thinking that, if the desired outcome is properly instilled, the body will work towards performing to match the mind's eye view.

[moverfive]

This question is really two parts. Performance at a match and how do you practice.

The simplest comparison is trying to run a mile in four minutes. If I were to take two "equal" people and had one ONLY train/run at the fastest pace that they can run TODAY.....and the other pushes himself to the point to where the first time he tries he cannot finish the mile without having to take a break.

After the two have been training for a month, guess what will happen when we finally put these together for a race? The one that has been pushing himself is probably going to win because the other guy hasn't improved.....he has been running the same pace since day one.

My point is to practice hard. As long as you are still seeing your sights, even if you miss or have no-shoots, you aren't shooting too fast, just that you aren't used to that speed yet.

But when you do shoot a real match, you only shoot at a speed where mistakes/misses are taken out of the equation. But what you will find is that your natural pace has been increased from your hard practice. So while you may be running 90% of your practice speed.....I would argue that that 90% was faster than your previous 100%.

[cz75ipsc]

So many good points here I don't know where to begin.

This question is really two parts. Performance at a match and how do you practice.

I do not believe in "accepting" misses or penalties. I believe in not fearing them in the progression of my skills.

These have the same fundamental thought behind them. Previously I didn't really separate my match performance from my training. After all, as Saul says: Practice makes permanent, not perfect. But I do see why you would maybe want to practice faster so you could start seeing more at that speed, which would eventually carry on to match performance. Along these lines:

However while growing in the sport you eventually have to find out how fast is to fast.

Now I've caught myself thinking in terms of speed, against Flex's advice. Even though I already knew that I should not think in terms of fast/slow and that was emphasized throughout his reply, I just can't seem to shake the concept of speed. It's such a major part of our sport, whether you think about it or not. And I obviously have problems getting rid of the thought. I don't know what kind of mind-emptying Zen-tricks I'd have to use...

Yes Max won a stage with a penalty....but did he win the match?

Would you rather win stages or win matches?

I would rather win matches. Then again I would rather be 4th in the World Shoot than wherever my current skill level is . Humor aside, I hope you see my point that a world-class shooter can be very competetive even with a miss now and then. And also, here's a VERY hypothetical point: If you win every stage, even with a miss in each one, you win the match. Again, very hypothetical, but makes you (or maybe just me) think...

Very good points here. If there's more of this, keep it coming. So far the stuff that's mostly stuck with me from this thread:

-heighten awareness, improve vision

-practice and match are separate situations (I'm having some problems digesting this one, as per Saul's teachings)

-practice fast to improve vision

-stop thinking "fast" (honestly, I can't seem to do this)

-I'm not alone

L2S, I did start to use double plugs two years back, and it certainly did heighten my awareness. I was prone to blinking before that. Concerning the drill you mentioned: should I even have targets, or just shoot at the berm? I would think having targets might make me WANT to see something... then again if there are no targets, I'm really not getting any feedback... or is that the point, to get the feedback from yourself?

Good stuff guys. Thanks.

[BSeevers]

I'll venture that Max didn't have too many misses for the match and having a miss and winning a stage doesn't compute into I need to go for it on every stage. Have you noticed KC, JoJo or JJ. They got some speed for sure. Or for example say a like when a Production B beats a GM Open in a match we don't all go out and start running Glock 17's in Open. Although you probably knew that.

[Loves2Shoot]

L2S, I did start to use double plugs two years back, and it certainly did heighten my awareness. I was prone to blinking before that. Concerning the drill you mentioned: should I even have targets, or just shoot at the berm? I would think having targets might make me WANT to see something... then again if there are no targets, I'm really not getting any feedback... or is that the point, to get the feedback from yourself?

Bingo!

[Catfish]

After just spending the weekend with Max and Travis, I can tell you with 100% certainty that at no point over the weekend did either guy say that it's ok to miss. As Jake suggested, the entire weekend was a constant repitition to shoot nothing but A's - fast of course, but A's none the less. Every drill they gave us to work on, every drill we did on the range, was to re-inforce us shooting A's. It was stated several times that we should consider C's misses and solely focus on a spot in the A zone as our target and not the entire brown thing.

Listen to TGO on the '05 Nats DVD - he explicity states that it's not the times that win matches, it's the points.

I can't see that accepting misses as part of your plan is a good way to go. Misses happen, just like accidents, but that doesn't mean I drive to work thinking it's ok to bang up my car.

It sounds to me like you're making this much harder than in should be. Just shoot, and let your eyes guide your trigger.

[Flexmoney]

You'll have a hard time not thinking in terms of speed, because speed is the culture. It's in the equation...points per second, with a factor for power.

It seems like it is something that you can control...something you know...so that is what you trust.

For the guys that come from accuracy based sports, they often have the opposite issue. They know what accurate shots need to look like, so that is what they trust.

You are falling back on what you know...what you trust. Which is natural to do, because that is where your experiences and understanding lie.

There was no hope in you shooting "slow", as that was still a focus on speed. And, it went against everything you believed to be true. It never had a chance because your mind couldn't buy into it.

Slowing down only makes you slow. Speeding up only makes you fast. Along the way you still need to collect the points. If you are thinking fast or slow...where does the rest of it fit in?

When you look at a score like that of Max's, where he had a miss and still won the stage, look at it as him collecting X amount of points in Y amount of seconds. Don't try to define it. Just take it for what it is.

Let me ask you this...how do you go faster? What means do you have to improve speed? How do you win?

Now, long-term, there are things you might do to train your system. But, on any given match day...you are only as fast as you are. That is, for our purposes, pretty much a constant. That is where you need to just use some of that trust and say that I am as fast as I am...today. Then, let that go.

Once you can accept that, you might be able to free yourself up to focus on other areas.

To get there, you will likely need to learn to trust in something else. I'd suggest visualizing the desired outcome as accurately as possible.

[Micah]

I'll venture that Max didn't have too many misses for the match and having a miss and winning a stage doesn't compute into I need to go for it on every stage. Have you noticed KC, JoJo or JJ. They got some speed for sure.

Uncle Bill and Flexmoney's statements "Slowing down only makes you slow. Speeding up only makes you fast. Along the way you still need to collect the points. If you are thinking fast or slow...where does the rest of it fit in?" are very profound. I like the term "collecting points". Letting your sights be the speedometer seems to be the key.

[caspian38]

don't listen to people when they tell you to slow down, just get more information from your sights". MB says something close to that on His fourth video and it really sunk in for me. a lot of people told me to slow down (still do on occasion ) but the Gm's and M's I shoot with have always said just shoot more A's

when it clicks your times are actually as fast or faster ... A's don't take any longer to shoot than mikes C's or D's. (i know someone is going to argue this point. but really the only difference between the four is your pointing the gun in the right spot on alphas.

c38

Edited March 3, 2006 by caspian38

[Crusher]

A's don't take any longer to shoot than mikes C's or D's

Bingo, If you aren't seeing and calling an A,C,D, miss, that is out of control and it will slow your skill advancement and often come to bite you in matches.

[Liota]

cz75ipsc,

You might want to also look at what TGO says about trigger control.

Liota

[John Dunn]

I agree with cz75ipsc.

Misses are OK....for him!

[benos]

... I bet Max could shoot that same stage, with the same time without the miss. ... A lot of guys can hose, but shoot fast and still get the points is the key to long term success.

Yes Max won a stage with a penalty....but did he win the match?

Would you rather win stages or win matches?

I guarantee to you that if you e-mail Max and ask him the same thing, his advice will be the exact opposite to you.

You shouldn't let a sub-par performance (even though it had a good result) influence the way you shoot.

+1 to a couple of the many good points in this thread.

If your goal is to shoot good points as quickly as you can, you'll have a pretty good plan. Of course you won't know what "as quickly as you can" means, to you, until you find the edge of your calling envelope. Eventually, with enough practice combined with careful observation, you'll find you can shoot good points about as quickly as you can manipulate the pistol on and off the targets. So misses can be okay, as long as you have the correct understanding that you're not yet on the right road. Once you've found and are on the right road, you'll never wonder about the "okay'ness" of misses again.

be

[Ron Ankeny]

Eventually, with enough practice combined with careful observation, you'll find you can shoot good points about as quickly as you can manipulate the pistol on and off the targets.

As one of those accuracy based folks, it took me about four years of eating, drinking, and breathing IPSC for that to finally sink in. Now that I can manipulate the gun, it's pretty obvious the next steps down the road to improvement don't have anything to do with pulling the trigger.