Us1.1.5.1

[ima45dv8]

There's been some interesting discussion about what constitutes a "legal" stage going on, and it got me to wondering about US1.1.5.1 again.

From the current USPSA rulebook:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

I thought I understood the exeption(s) to the freestyle requirement, but now I'm not so sure.

It made sense to me that you could dictate targets or arrays from a particular position or view (i.e., "You must engage T1-T3 from Port A Only"). Does the Freestyle exception also allow mandating things like, "6 rounds Freestyle, Reload, 6 rounds Strong-Hand-Only, Reload, 6 rounds Weak-Hand-Only" all in one string?

One stage mentioned recently required the shooter to engage 1 paper, then 1 plate on a Texas Star, then 1 paper, then another plate on the Star, and so on. I take it you can do that under 1.1.5.1?

What about Round counts? Is that only for the total round count for the stage, or is the requirement for no more than 9 shots required from any one shooting position also excused?

I'm in need of illumination....

[SteveZ]

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.[/b][/i]

I thought I understood the exeption(s) to the freestyle requirement, but now I'm not so sure.

Well here's my undestanding of what 1.1.5.1 means (the way I've been schooled on it). 1.1.5 says USPSA is freestyle (shoot 'em as you see 'em) however some clubs don't have a bunch of props to block the view of targets and therefore need someway to "block the view" of certain targets without having the props to do it. Hence you get the "engage t1-t3 from box A" types of COF's. Furthermore, the 1.1.5.1 exemption doesn't allow "perform a mandatory reload" COF's at Level I matches either. The excemption is for the "shoot'em as you see em" and round count restrictions.

It made sense to me that you could dictate targets or arrays from a particular position or view (i.e., "You must engage T1-T3 from Port A Only"). Does the Freestyle exception also allow mandating things like, "6 rounds Freestyle, Reload, 6 rounds Strong-Hand-Only, Reload, 6 rounds Weak-Hand-Only" all in one string?

no, because "handedness" applies to Standard Exercises ONLY. And...standards have to have multiple strings...and once you make the switch of hands in a Standard...you can't switch to some other hand. You can only do it once.

One stage mentioned recently required the shooter to engage 1 paper, then 1 plate on a Texas Star, then 1 paper, then another plate on the Star, and so on. I take it you can do that under 1.1.5.1?

I think you could have that type of COF under 1.1.5.1 at a club match. It similar to stating target engagement order (t1-t3 from box A, t4-t6 from box .

What about Round counts? Is that only for the total round count for the stage, or is the requirement for no more than 9 shots required from any one shooting position also excused?

Its for the total round count AND the 9 hits from any one shooting position parts of 1.2.1.X.

[Ron Ankeny]

I agree with Steve. The exceptions were intended to give some flexibility to clubs that don't have a lot of resources. Unfortunately, in many instances the exceptions are just plain abused.

In our state, our fledgling clubs soon discovered that building the required walls (even those cheesy snow fence walls), vision barriers, etc. was well worth the effort.

[Jon Merricks]

I recently attended a very large level 1 match and when I asked about a disappearing target being scored with penalties I was told "if you really look at the rule book yea it would be a disappearing target but since we are a level 1........" so yea I would say it could be abused.

The biggest thing that bothers me is when it's an excuse for lack of effort, lack of props I can understand but lack of effort I can't.

[schoonie]

Jon,

It may have been done that way because they were well into the match when the error was discovered and couldn't make the change since it would have reguired the stage to be tossed or have all the previous shooters re-shoot.

Not a good excuse, just an explanation.

[AikiDale]

US 1.1.5.1, the anarchist rule, allows a local club/match director, to put up anything they choose and still have enough wiggle room to call it a USPSA match. Whether it is lazy, malicious, misguided, mischevious or intentional really does not matter and depends on the club.

The course design is no excuse to not enjoy the shooting. Enjoy the illegal stages as much as the legal ones. You may have to adapt to overcome, but that is part of the challenge.

A friend of mine visited a club that shot 3 stages. Each stage was 50 to 70 rounds. Friend, shooting L-10, did not like the format and only went a couple of times. Shoot the one's you like.

Would it be nice if all clubs shot only legal stages all the time? Probably. I get annoyed if the Big Mac in Nevada is not the same as the Big Mac in Kentucky. I have seen clubs and sections have major rifts over this kind of thing and it seems to me this is one of the fights it is just not worth fighting. Fighting is so important it should be reserved for serious issues and not wasted on the trivial ones. To do so only lessens the glory of 'true' fighting and reduces it to the droll mediocrity of petty bickering.

That said, a disappearing target is a disappearing target and should be scored as one!

[davidball]

In our state, our fledgling clubs soon discovered that building the required walls (even those cheesy snow fence walls), vision barriers, etc. was well worth the effort.

Hey, hey, hey . . . don't be disin' my snow fence walls . . . they are light and portable, easy to setup, take down and transport . . . and inexpensive to build!

[Ron Ankeny]

David:

I tossed the snow fence remark in there because I love them. To date I have built about 20 of the darn things.

The course design is no excuse to not enjoy the shooting. Enjoy the illegal stages as much as the legal ones. You may have to adapt to overcome, but that is part of the challenge.

That is the most diplomatic way of saying "shut up and shoot" that I have ever seen. It took me years to figure that out on my own.

[ima45dv8]

Dale/Ron, just to be clear about the reason I raised this issue - I am not looking for, or engaging in fights with any clubs over this. Never said it, and I regret if anyone read that in my original post. In fact, when visiting other clubs I'm usually very quick to say "Don't worry about it; everybody else has to shoot it that way, too" when someone points out that a stage has strayed way off the reservation.

What I'm trying to get to is a better idea of just what this Exemption allows. What can you do and what can't you do as a stage designer and still claim a Level I exception? Like Ron said, it gets abused, but where is the line/list/whatever that gets crossed to bring a stage into the abusive category?

It could be this is just too broad a question, or that the answer would read like a laundry list. I don't know...... Maybe one of the RMI's will stop by and offer an opinion.

[mactiger]

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

I thought I understood the exeption(s) to the freestyle requirement, but now I'm not so sure.

It made sense to me that you could dictate targets or arrays from a particular position or view (i.e., "You must engage T1-T3 from Port A Only"). Does the Freestyle exception also allow mandating things like, "6 rounds Freestyle, Reload, 6 rounds Strong-Hand-Only, Reload, 6 rounds Weak-Hand-Only" all in one string?

One stage mentioned recently required the shooter to engage 1 paper, then 1 plate on a Texas Star, then 1 paper, then another plate on the Star, and so on. I take it you can do that under 1.1.5.1?

What about Round counts? Is that only for the total round count for the stage, or is the requirement for no more than 9 shots required from any one shooting position also excused?

I'm in need of illumination....

I thought I'd responded last night, but I don't see it here, so here goes again:

The US exemption to the freestyle requirements does give local matches some leeway as far as using boxes and specifying which targets to be engaged from where, instead of lots of walls/vision barriers and "shoot 'em as you see 'em". However, it does not allow for requring different hands in the same string, nor does it allow specifying target engagement order, such as one plate, one paper, etc. Saying engage T1-T3 from box A doesn't mean that you have to shoot T1 first, just that those targets must be engaged from box A. The round count per shooting position or view is not excused, either. You can have larger courses of fire, though--the 32 round max is exempted.

Hope this clears it up a bit.

Troy

[ima45dv8]

Hope this clears it up a bit.

Troy

Yes, it does. I thought round counts per position were not included in the exceptions, nor is the mandating of the order of engagement but wanted a sanity check from someone.

Thanks, Troy.

[Ron Ankeny]

ima45dv8:

I was just remarking about Dale being so diplomatic. I certainly wasn't directing anything at you. FWIW, I tried for years to get some of the clubs around here to stop using the exemptions as license to put on some of the craziest stages I have ever seen. In my case, bitching didn't work nearly as well as rolling up my sleeves and helping the guys to build better courses of fire. Bad course design is my pet peeve, but I have learned to be more patient.

[ima45dv8]

No worries, Ron. Actually I sorta liked your "shut and shoot" version (and yes, he was very diplomatic). I only wanted to be clear that my interest in this comes from wanting to be the best *I* can when building, debugging and running stages, and that I wasn't looking for a club to hit anyone over the head with.

We have a fairly new club in the area that puts up some stages that call for all sorts of non-compliant actions, but I love shooting there just the same. They have a fresh perspective on stage design and it's always fun. I wouldn't dream of walking into their house and complaining about the stages they put up.

...Mark

[AikiDale]

What I'm trying to get to is a better idea of just what this Exemption allows. What can you do and what can't you do as a stage designer and still claim a Level I exception? Like Ron said, it gets abused, but where is the line/list/whatever that gets crossed to bring a stage into the abusive category?

Mark,

Sorry if I seemed a bit abrupt. I was just thinking outloud, a dangerous practice, responding to the practice rather than to you and had no intention of telling you personally to shut up and shoot. (Ron does get right to the point).

It was a good question, and Troy 'splained it pretty good!

[MikeFoley]

The excuse, "it is a level one match and I can do as I please", apparently doesn't mean you can negate the rules of the game as some believe, but gives only limited flexibility in setup and design. It would also seem that specifying a certain number of rounds other than loaded or unloaded is not allowed.

[ima45dv8]

Mark,

Sorry if I seemed a bit abrupt. I was just thinking outloud, a dangerous practice, responding to the practice rather than to you and had no intention of telling you personally to shut up and shoot. (Ron does get right to the point).

It was a good question, and Troy 'splained it pretty good!

No sweat, Dale. I just wanted to make sure y'all knew I didn't raise the question for anything other than learning to do it right myself. When I visit a match I didn't help set up I'm not about to complain that someone put up a stage that doesn't follow the rulebook to the letter.

Now, I *will* speak up if I see a stage that asks shooters to do something unsafe (as I'm sure we all would).

[Flexmoney]

Complain all you want. You paid to shoot a USPSA match, not a rouge match.

[ima45dv8]

That's a great point, but it really doesn't happen around here all that often.

Most of the local clubs have very experienced people designing and constructing stages and they know how to do that within the rules. It's only occasionally we see a group who's learning the ropes of putting on matches that might need a little help understanding why someone is telling them a particular stage isn't right. If they ask me why (and they have), I'm glad to lend some coaching/explanation. I raised this thread to make sure I'm giving the best answers I can.

Edited March 2, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Singlestack]

That's a great point, but it really doesn't happen around here all that often.

Most of the local clubs have very experienced people designing and constructing stages and they know how to do that within the rules.

Sorry for the drift but I had to jump in and give a big +1 to that statement. We are blessed in the Georgia section with some of the best stage designers in the country.

[LPatterson]

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

I thought I understood the exeption(s) to the freestyle requirement, but now I'm not so sure.

It made sense to me that you could dictate targets or arrays from a particular position or view (i.e., "You must engage T1-T3 from Port A Only"). Does the Freestyle exception also allow mandating things like, "6 rounds Freestyle, Reload, 6 rounds Strong-Hand-Only, Reload, 6 rounds Weak-Hand-Only" all in one string?

One stage mentioned recently required the shooter to engage 1 paper, then 1 plate on a Texas Star, then 1 paper, then another plate on the Star, and so on. I take it you can do that under 1.1.5.1?

What about Round counts? Is that only for the total round count for the stage, or is the requirement for no more than 9 shots required from any one shooting position also excused?

I'm in need of illumination....

I thought I'd responded last night, but I don't see it here, so here goes again:

The US exemption to the freestyle requirements does give local matches some leeway as far as using boxes and specifying which targets to be engaged from where, instead of lots of walls/vision barriers and "shoot 'em as you see 'em". However, it does not allow for requring different hands in the same string, nor does it allow specifying target engagement order, such as one plate, one paper, etc. Saying engage T1-T3 from box A doesn't mean that you have to shoot T1 first, just that those targets must be engaged from box A. The round count per shooting position or view is not excused, either. You can have larger courses of fire, though--the 32 round max is exempted.

Hope this clears it up a bit.

Troy

Troy, I am going to play devil's advocate. The way US1.1.5.1 is written does not specify total round count or round count per position therefore the stage scenario from another post of shoot 5 targets with 2 rounds each is leagal until changed by John Amidon or the Board Of Directors. I could also have a level I stage with 2 shooting boxes and 8 targets with 2 rounds each and require a mandatory reload between boxes per 1.1.5.2 since 16 rounds is a medium course of fire.