Which Revolver?

[spook]

I shot some EPP (European Police Parcours) yesterday and I am hooked.

Course of fire is fixed. You shoot at this fella:

You start with 2x5 shots at 7 meters in 15 seconds.

Then the rest of the course in 5.5 minutes for an IPSC shooter, time is not an issue here). After every string you have to reload the gun with loose rounds and time stops when the gun is loaded and holstered for the next string:

- 35 meters prone 5 shots

- 25 meters sitting 5 shots

- 20 meters around a barricade SH (two handed) 5 shots, reload WH (two handed) 5 shots

- 15 meters kneeling 5 shots

- 15 meters standing 5 shots in 10 seconds

The above strings are all shot at the "bad guy"

- 10 meters at the little top rings: - 1st string 5 shots SH only, 2nd string two handed

It's a nice and simple game.

Anyways, I can't shoot it with my 625. .38/.357 is the max. caliber, and I need a six-shooter with a 4" (or shorter) barrel. I am ashamed to say this as a Revolver shooter, but I have never owned a .38/.357 revolver in my life

Which one would you recommend?

Unfortunately, I can't test the guns before I buy them. I have seen some M19s, M27s and the occasional 686 (which I don't really like because of the stainless front sight).

Which ones would you get and why? Any experiences with exceptional (both good and bad) accuracy of different models?

Is there any way to check accuracy without actually shooting the gun (might sound like a dumb question, but you know what I mean right )

A lot of questions... but I really like this game...

[AzShooter]

I would get the Model 19 because I like K frames. Some guys like the size of the Model 27 but the K will let you get a better trigger with less mass to have to muscle around.

Get some Safariland Comp III speedloaders and you're all set.

[hearthco]

I shot some EPP (European Police Parcours) yesterday and I am hooked.

Course of fire is fixed. You shoot at this fella:

[

Hey Spook,

That target's got a head!!!!

Hearthco

[RPM8shot]

spook,

If you are looking for a new gun the (stainless steel) 686 is a good all around .38/.357. You should be able to find a 4" version easily. There are also lots of sight combos, speed loaders and grips available aftermarket for this series handgun. L frames seem to be a good compromise between the K and N frame as far as size and weight.

If you prefer the size and weight of an N frame then the model 27/28 is good but no jet loaders available.

The K frame Model 10 are small and easy to shoot .38+p. These guns are very light. 4" Model 10's are fixed sight and are abundant used or still available new.

A model 67 or model 19 are good medium frame guns but with adjustable sights.

Good Luck

Hey Dave,

Isn't that called the "upper A/B zone?"

Renny

[spook]

Thanks for the tips guys

I think I'm going with a K-frame with adjustables (probably a M19 I've seen in the shop for $220). It will fit my 617 4" holster.

I really like the 27s and 28s, but no availability of jetloaders is a no-no (though I guess I could do the 5 reload 5 from 7 meters well within 15 seconds using loose rounds )

Hearthco, yeah, the target has a head

Because it's a "police" match, it's OK, even if you're a civilian...

Craaaazy lawwsssss!!!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Thanks for the tips guys

I think I'm going with a K-frame with adjustables (probably a M19 I've seen in the shop for $220). It will fit my 617 4" holster.

I really like the 27s and 28s, but no availability of jetloaders is a no-no (though I guess I could do the 5 reload 5 from 7 meters well within 15 seconds using loose rounds )

Hearthco, yeah, the target has a head

Because it's a "police" match, it's OK, even if you're a civilian...

Craaaazy lawwsssss!!!

Spook,

You should be able to get the SL Variant loaders from Germany. They work great.

Here is a chart from an Australian company but Longwitz is the manufacturer.

http://www.sportingguns.com.au/UsedGuns/speedLoader.html

[pstew]

Do you need .357 for power factor? If not, then you are going to be shooting .38 specials, for the lower power and shorter length.

What I'm getting at is that you could also look at the S&W .38's like the model 14 . A model 19 for $220 is a great price though.

[R112mercer]

Spook;

I shoot PPC, which is very similar to the game you're playing. For a 4" gun I use a M19, if I could find a M66 or M67 I'd get one in a heartbeat (stainless steel is easier to clean). L frames are real nice too, and you could always have the stainless front sight milled off and a black partridge put in it's place. I have a M14, it's one of the nicest stock guns I own. Unfortunately they're almost always 6" versions. If you can find 4" M14's let me know, I'd love to have one.

As for accuracy, check the lands in the barrel, crown, forcing cone, endshake, sideplay at lock-up, and timing (if you can find a timing rod it's a help).

[revchuck]

Björn - If you don't have to worry about power factor, get the M19 or another K frame. I don't think there's a difference in accuracy potential among S&W frame sizes, but the K frames have a lower bore axis, and this makes them easier (for me, anyway) to shoot quickly and accurately.

If you're not set up to reload .38/.357, the S&B .38 Special RNL works pretty well.

[wlktheduk]

Spook, I'll add my vote for a K-frame S&W Model 19/66 in .357 magnum, or a K-frame Model 15/67 in .38 special (AKA Combat Masterpiece)

R112 Mercer beat me to accuracy and function checks, but I would also add that checking the sights to see that the rear sight moves freely (windage/elevation) and the adjustments are repeatable.

Slight thread drift here, but I have a question about the CoF for Spook?

Is it a version of the Course of Fire that a Raymond Sasia, of the French National Police, set up in the late 60's/early 70's. As I remember it, it was the French national police standard pistol qualification course, shot in a style that was called the "Sasia" method.

In 1984, I was attending a firearms instructors course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) in Glynco, Georgia. A trainer from the French National Police was there, and during the class there were several discussions about training methods, styles, equipment and the differences between assorted agencies.

The French Police trainer, whose name I cannot recall right now, demonstrated a Course of Fire, using a target just like the one in your post. As I recall, the "Saisa Method" style, shooting stance, and draw was somewhat different then the FLETC style, more like old style FBI point/hip shooting. I was able to shoot the course, and kept the target, as a example of other training styles/techniques.

Thanks for the reminder of some of the Good Old Days.

[Gary Stevens]

K Frame??? Would that be like a Model 66 3 inch???

Gary

[spook]

Round_Gun_Shooter

Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I checked with a couple of European forums and it seems the Longwitz jetloaders are no longer used. I must say that speedstrips, or regular speedloaders are probably OK, because of the extremely long time limits.

pstew & R112mercer

There's no PF requirement. I was thinking of shooting some very sof target loads in .357 cases for better accuracy (less freebore than using .38 cases). I also looked into the M14, but could also only find them in 6". I know 4" are made, but I coubt that one will show up over here.

Thanks for the great tips on checking the gun! I'll get a timing rod.

wlktheduk

Yes, this is the Sasia qualification Except they have loosened up on the method of shooting it. IIRC, the first strings with the 15 second limit should be shot from the hip in the original qualification.

I love the old school target. It's basically just a fun course of fire that requires no real speed and good (but not exceptional) accuracy. Kind of a relaxing thing to do...

Maybe I'm just getting old....

[R112mercer]

Round_Gun_Shooter

I must say that speedstrips, or regular speedloaders are probably OK, because of the extremely long time limits.

pstew & R112mercer

There's no PF requirement. I was thinking of shooting some very sof target loads in .357 cases for better accuracy (less freebore than using .38 cases). I also looked into the M14, but could also only find them in 6". I know 4" are made, but I coubt that one will show up over here.

Thanks for the great tips on checking the gun! I'll get a timing rod.

Spook;

Don't use low pressure loads in a Magnum case, it's too easy for the rounds to be under pressure. This could lead to squibbs or causing the cylinder to burst (yes, LOW pressure rounds can blow a gun up). Stick with regular old .38 Special brass and either SWC or HBWC loads (depending on whether or not they'll let you use the HBWC). It's my experience that Magnums usually have fine accuracy despite the longer jump.

As for the long time limits, remember, a fast reload leaves more time to shoot during the course of fire. Plus it's nice to pratice fast reloads. Good Luck.