chp5 Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Here's a new ruling for Amidon on XD mag releases in Production. "NROI Rulings Title: Internal VS External Created: 1/31/06 Updated: 2/07/06 Effective: 2/07/06 Rule number: US Appendix D9 i Applies to: Pistol Ruling authority: John Amidon Status: Released Question My actual question was: would this type of mod be legal in Production?? The actual physical changes are being made interally to the mag release but the result is the release sticking out further on one side. Does this fall under the category of an internal mod and thus legal or since the change is visable (you can see the release sticking out further on one side) would this be external and NOT legal?? Ruling The rules allow for internal modifications, such as action work to enhance reliability, throating, trigger work, etc.. Changing an external part from the factory specs., is not part of that enhancement. Trigger jobs can be done without altering the mag release. There has been a previous ruling in March of 2005, it states: Exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun from the same manufacturer is allowed, providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts and offered in their catalogs or on their handguns that otherwise meet division criteria. So if Springfield offered this part in the altered state, on one of the models or in their catalog, so it could be ordered by itself, it would be OK to exchange the mag release, it cannot be modified internally to get an external enhancement." Here's the link: XD mag release ruling I read this ruling as disallowing Rich's (Canyon Creek) modification to the mag release in Production. I also read this ruling as POSSIBLY allowing the Bar Sto extended mag release because Springfield uses it. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 That SUCKS because it is Springfield's policy not to sell individual parts to armors or the general public. So if you want the Bar Sto part send your gun to Springfield. I DON'T THINK SO!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts To me this part of the earlier ruling disallows the Barsto release since it isn't manufactured by SA or the IM Metal factory in Croatia???? Maybe, maybe not...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts To me this part of the earlier ruling disallows the Barsto release since it isn't manufactured by SA or the IM Metal factory in Croatia???? Maybe, maybe not...... However I THINK SA offers it on some factory guns as an option - which would make it legal. Anyone agree/disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Dub Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts To me this part of the earlier ruling disallows the Barsto release since it isn't manufactured by SA or the IM Metal factory in Croatia???? Maybe, maybe not...... However I THINK SA offers it on some factory guns as an option - which would make it legal. Anyone agree/disagree? Last I checked a couple months back, it was only available on the XD Custom Pro which is built up by the Custom Shop. Not an approved model on the Production Gun list. Neither would they sell it outright, said it was only available for in shop mods on customer supplied guns. Not sure of the current status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) If the Bar-Sto XD Mag release is legal you can get them direct from Bar-Sto Precision Alan Edited February 9, 2006 by Alan Meek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) I think it would need to come on a Production legal gun to be legal in similar model guns. (Like the Beretta and Glock mag releases.) I'm not fond (at all) of a "custom" part from the factory being legal. One, it is a custom, not Production part. Two, that kinda gives the factory shop all the power. (They could put one in my gun, and choose not to put one in yours.) My basic belief is that Production legal guns/parts ought to be mass produced and anybody can get them. Edited February 9, 2006 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted February 9, 2006 Author Share Posted February 9, 2006 I think it would need to come on a Production legal gun to be legal in similar model guns. (Like the Beretta and Glock mag releases.)I'm not fond (at all) of a "custom" part from the factory being legal. One, it is a custom, not Production part. Two, that kinda gives the factory shop all the power. (They could put one in my gun, and choose not to put one in yours.) My basic belief is that Production legal guns/parts ought to be mass produced and anybody can get them. Flex - I believe that SA offers the extended Bomar release in factory guns. Maybe Bob H. will chime in with some more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 I don't think they offer them in any factory guns that are massed produced, do they? They sound more like a custom part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCK Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 You can only buy a factory built XD with the Barsto Mag release if its a custom shop built "production ready XD". The guns coming from Croatia do not come with Barsto Mag releases. It is my understanding that you can swap out an extended mag release on a Glock because Glock puts the mag release in factory guns. Does the custom shop XD have a special model number or any designation engraved into the gun???? If not, then I would think this would be an illegal mod. Why would the factory be able to install an aftermarket mag release but not the customer and it be legal?? This one could give you a headache debating it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Olhasso Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 John Amidon has specifically stated on many occasions that parts offered for sale by the manufacturer of the gun, are allowed to be interchanged on that gun, providing that the parts stay within the restrictions of the division the gun will compete in. Since you can send your XD to Springfield to have a Barsto extended magazine release installed (its in their catalog), that mag release is legal for production. simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 My read is that the part has to come from another gun that is also an approved gun for production. Offering "custom shop" parts doesn't seem very off the shelf, to me. If it is a true factory option on a factory gun, then that would seem to be good to go. But, not if it comes out of the custom shop. (If that ends up being the case...then I feel that is the wrong direction to be taking Production.) Opinions aside (mine, Amidon's, whoever's...), the ruling is (from March, 2005): Exchanging external parts from one approved model handgun to another approved model handgun from the same manufacturer is allowed... ...providing that the parts are original manufacturers parts and offered in their catalogs... ...or on their handguns that otherwise meet division criteria. I don't know that the extended XD release from Springfield is a true "catalog" item? I have only seen it on their website as a "custom shop" option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rehn Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 re: XD mag release. Cost for the average gun owner to grind a little polymer off the stock XD frame to make the mag release easier to hit: materials $0, labor $0 (do it yourself). Practical for street carry: yes USPSA says: illegal. The alternative is to spend money on an aftermarket part that is (in my opinion) something too large to use on a truly "practical" gun. It's not a part that's in stock at your local Big 5 or Sports Authority. The BarSto XD mag release I bought came with no instructions. I had to call BarSto and Irv gave me a good enough explanation that it only took an hour to get it installed the first time, with help. (For those that haven't installed an extended mag release on an XD, it's not easy like a 1911. Irv warned me that it was not a particularly easy install. My PhD shooter wife had to help me.) Practical for street carry: not really USPSA says: OK for "Production" (or it was when I bought mine) With the 10 round mag cap limit in Production, Production shooters have to do more reloads, thus the mag release is of more importance than it might be in Limited or Open. People with small hands that can't reach the mag release w/o shifting their grip have to choose between a reload technique that requires repositioning the gun in the firing grip twice, or a reload technique that uses a finger of the support hand to push the button. Both add extra movements (aka time and risk) thus decreasing competitive advantage. The XD at least has a truly ambi mag release that offers another option: using the trigger finger of the firing hand. You can only get the 2-pound match trigger by sending your gun to Springfield so they can install trigger parts they won't sell to gunsmiths - but that's legal for USPSA Production too. The rule against grip reductions in Production is discriminatory against people with small hands. There are physical limits to how small you can make a grip frame that holds 9mm ammo, and there are no single stack 9mm Production legal pistols with 10 round mags that' I'm aware of. Everything is either a fat gun double stack or a super-low-cap single stack like the Kahr models. The new single stack division is the only one that's truly small hand friendly since the best Lim10 gun is just a Limited gun run with 10 rounds in the mag. There's no valid argument based on cost, since trigger jobs that cost a lot more than grip reductions are legal, and neither are factory options outside the uber-custom gun market. Let's be honest: dropping the trigger pull from 6 to 2 pounds is going to make a _much_ bigger difference in scores than having a mag release that's 1/4" longer. All an extended mag release does is allow a person with small hands a chance to level the playing field against a shooter with a larger hand in a skill that's maybe worth 10% of any match. I think the biggest shame in the shooting sports right now is that between GSSF, IPSC and IDPA the rules have gotten so screwed up that my real carry gear (Kydex IWB holster, grip reduced polymer frame hicap pistol) can't be used as-is in any match. I either have to load down to less than 'street' capacity, change holsters, or change guns because the holster, capacity or grip don't meet the rules. Yet except for the manual labor involved in the hacking I've done on the grip and polishing on stock trigger parts, all my stuff is basically off the shelf gear. It's less hassle to shoot Open. "Logic is a bouquet of pretty flowers... that smells bad" - Mr. Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) You can only get the 2-pound match trigger by sending your gun to Springfield so they can install trigger parts they won't sell to gunsmiths ... Several folks can give you a 2 lbs trigger on an XD. I've done more than a few. As far as the mag catch goes, if it is fair to switch it out for the Glock it should be fair for the XD, there are enough people making them. Just like the trigger guard wear on a Glock or CZ is fair as an external mod As long as people are racing guns, they will mod them to the edge of the legal limits. I just finished mirror polishing some parts tonight. But the one thing about shooting, is no matter the gear, it still comes down the shooting. Edited February 10, 2006 by Loves2Shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 As far as the mag catch goes, if it is fair to switch it out for the Glock it should be fair for the XD, there are enough people making them. I have an XD sitting right here. I can hit the reload without shifting my grip. With the Glock, and the factory extended mag release, I still need to shift my grip. Of course, there are plenty of people making big paddles to go on glock mag releases. By your logic, those ought to be legal for Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 By your logic, those ought to be legal for Production? Sorry, I meant it should be fair to switch it to one with the the specs of the factory "exteneded" release reagrdless of who turns them. Production is going to eventually be just be a game (to some) of who can afford the $1500 "factory IPSC" pistol But some really know, it is the Indian, not the arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) Just to add this.. Amidon ruled that the CZ competition hammer was legal as it was a OFM part offered.. I have that email somewhere...he quoted the NROI ruling about swapping out Glock parts from one legal gun to another.. CZ now offers the SP01 Shadow ( 2006 catalog and shown at SHOT ) with that hammer. so if Springfield offers the mag release and you can send you gun in and have it installed...It may be legal.. Edited February 10, 2006 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 ...and the Comp hammer has been an option for about 8 months, so it has been legal for quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Production is going to eventually be just be a game (to some) of who can afford the $1500 "factory IPSC" pistol That is what I fear. And, when that happens, we lose one of the selling points we have for recruiting new shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 In the latest Front Sight (page 62) there is a statement about the "part" now being offered by the factory. Does this mean I have to buy the extended release (made by Bar Sto?) or is a Canyon Creek modified factory release ok (or any other)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 The Canyon Creek mag release is available from Springfield. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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