Help with hammer follow. I'm stumped.

[FarmerDanz]

I'll start off by saying I am competent but not very experienced with 1911 trouble shooting. And I'm stumped on this one.  

 

The issue I need help with.... If I drop the slide (just to test the trigger is safe) with a loose two finger grip the hammer will follow maybe 1 in 8 times when the leaf spring is adjusted to give me a 2lbs trigger break. Doesn't ever do it if I put side pressure on the trigger or keep it depressed while testing.

 

Due to the current government we can't buy new handguns in Canada at the moment, so I'm stuck trying to make a Taurus trigger nice and also keep it safe.  It started as a series 80 and is converted to 70 by removing the slide plunger parts and cannibalizing the trigger series 80 parts into washers/spacers. By the way this makes checking the ink wear patterns on the hooks and sear a nightmare hah.  Maybe this has something to do with the hammer following? 

 

I put in an STI hammer and reused the original sear and disconnector. The leaf spring is also original and probably fatigued by now from too much adjustment. It's pretty thick as well, maybe it's my issue? The hammer spring is original and I read it's 17lbs. I've tried to shim it up to 3/16" and no difference with the hammer follow. The trigger has good visible pre travel at half cock. The trigger moves freely very smoothly. The over travel adjustment doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

I can see the hammer move back slightly during the trigger break, and the witness marks show a positive angle.  Everything looks good here but I'm not a pro... The hammer hooks look square and they are sharp and show sear witness marks across the hook faces, not just the tips. If I press the trigger perfectly and release I can see the sear suck back into the hammer.

 

The original hammer and sear pins were super sloppy. I could easily wiggle the hammer. So I made custom fit pins for the hammer and sear, they are snug... Didn't seem to make much difference. 

 

Increasing sear pressure doesn't seem to help much until it gets up to a 3.5lbs trigger. However increasing trigger return spring pressure while leaving sear pressure low (let's say 1/3 sear 2/3 return) allows the lightest pull of around 2.5lbs and the hammer doesn't follow.  I still hear very audible and positive clicks from the sear while cocking the hammer.

 

One thing I observed on this frame vs all my other 1911s is the disconnector bore is rather large and sloppy on the Taurus. I polished the bore of the disconnector so it's smooth inside, but the disconnector seems to have a lot of free play back and forth. I wonder if this could have something to do with my hammer drop issue.

 

 

I realise it's a Taurus. It's junk. I could be happy with a 2lbs 9oz trigger but I am not ready to give up. However I am ready to ask for help! Hopefully someone has some ideas.

 

At this point Im ready to order up an egw ignition kit. It's probably what needs to be done.  

 

 

 

[rooster]

I’ve been away from 1911’s for a long time. Your problem sounds like trigger bounce. The inertia from slide dropping on an empty chamber causes the trigger to bounce and trip hammer. You can test by holding side of trigger and drop slide, if no follow that could be problem. Also by needlessly dropping slide to keep testing could also cause problem. IIRC I used to drop test slide just once. Test by live fire, with round being stripped from mag slows down slide. Load 1 round fire, then 2, then 3. If no follow you should be good. Also make sure your half cock notch is working properly.

[Runswithwood1]

9 hours ago, FarmerDanz said:

I'll start off by saying I am competent but not very experienced with 1911 trouble shooting. And I'm stumped on this one.  

 

The issue I need help with.... If I drop the slide (just to test the trigger is safe) with a loose two finger grip the hammer will follow maybe 1 in 8 times when the leaf spring is adjusted to give me a 2lbs trigger break. Doesn't ever do it if I put side pressure on the trigger or keep it depressed while testing.

 

Due to the current government we can't buy new handguns in Canada at the moment, so I'm stuck trying to make a Taurus trigger nice and also keep it safe.  It started as a series 80 and is converted to 70 by removing the slide plunger parts and cannibalizing the trigger series 80 parts into washers/spacers. By the way this makes checking the ink wear patterns on the hooks and sear a nightmare hah.  Maybe this has something to do with the hammer following? 

 

I put in an STI hammer and reused the original sear and disconnector. The leaf spring is also original and probably fatigued by now from too much adjustment. It's pretty thick as well, maybe it's my issue? The hammer spring is original and I read it's 17lbs. I've tried to shim it up to 3/16" and no difference with the hammer follow. The trigger has good visible pre travel at half cock. The trigger moves freely very smoothly. The over travel adjustment doesn't seem to make a difference.

 

I can see the hammer move back slightly during the trigger break, and the witness marks show a positive angle.  Everything looks good here but I'm not a pro... The hammer hooks look square and they are sharp and show sear witness marks across the hook faces, not just the tips. If I press the trigger perfectly and release I can see the sear suck back into the hammer.

 

The original hammer and sear pins were super sloppy. I could easily wiggle the hammer. So I made custom fit pins for the hammer and sear, they are snug... Didn't seem to make much difference. 

 

Increasing sear pressure doesn't seem to help much until it gets up to a 3.5lbs trigger. However increasing trigger return spring pressure while leaving sear pressure low (let's say 1/3 sear 2/3 return) allows the lightest pull of around 2.5lbs and the hammer doesn't follow.  I still hear very audible and positive clicks from the sear while cocking the hammer.

 

One thing I observed on this frame vs all my other 1911s is the disconnector bore is rather large and sloppy on the Taurus. I polished the bore of the disconnector so it's smooth inside, but the disconnector seems to have a lot of free play back and forth. I wonder if this could have something to do with my hammer drop issue.

 

 

I realise it's a Taurus. It's junk. I could be happy with a 2lbs 9oz trigger but I am not ready to give up. However I am ready to ask for help! Hopefully someone has some ideas.

 

At this point Im ready to order up an egw ignition kit. It's probably what needs to be done.  

 

 

 

+1 on the egw kit, did it to my dan wesson and now have a safe trigger pull of 2.4 pounds average, downside the lighter hammer spring causes a bit of creep, luckily I slap the trigger anyways so it's a non issue 

[sfinney]

Ditch the Taurus sear, for EGW or at least something on the level of the STI hammer. Need something with correct angles to mate with the STI hammer.

Sear Springs are cheap, I'd replace that as well. Tune for about 2.5 - 3 pounds and try again.

If it passes you can lower it til it does not. Then back up 1/2 pound.....   

[Yeti]

Yes, replace the sear.  I'd also replace the disco.

EGW, Extreme or Harrison are all great.  

[DrewM]

I'd also give up on the idea of doing a 2lb trigger on mostly stock parts (honestly I'd give up on a 2lb trigger unless you can really inspect everything to make sure you are making things as safe as possible - even more so given it's a Taurus - not known to always be 'in-spec'), there are a few reasons for hammer follow, but more tension on the middle leg of the sear spring is usually where you want to look first - I'd shoot for 3.5 to 4lbs as a trigger pull - and do roughly half/half of the pull weight on the outer and middle sear spring legs (if you think you can measure it well, you can do like 1/3 - 2/3 if you want), and then see if hammer follow still happens, you can kind of tweak down from there.  

[zzt]

Get the EGW kit with the HD disco.  In properly sized holes I always have to remove some material from the ball.  The extra diameter will help with your sloppy disco hole.  The hammer should not move while pulling the trigger.  The EGW disco has a thicker pad than most.  You may have to remove material to get your half cock to work.  It will depend on how much pretravel your trigget bow will allow.

[FarmerDanz]

11 hours ago, rooster said:

I’ve been away from 1911’s for a long time. Your problem sounds like trigger bounce. The inertia from slide dropping on an empty chamber causes the trigger to bounce and trip hammer. You can test by holding side of trigger and drop slide, if no follow that could be problem. Also by needlessly dropping slide to keep testing could also cause problem. IIRC I used to drop test slide just once. Test by live fire, with round being stripped from mag slows down slide. Load 1 round fire, then 2, then 3. If no follow you should be good. Also make sure your half cock notch is working properly.

 

 

So let's say it's trigger bounce... The solution is a trigger bow and shoe with less mass? Interesting because my two other STIs with sub 2lbs safe triggers both have very light bow and shoe setups. I could film it in super slow Mo and watch the trigger carefully. 

 

 

 

And thanks to everyone elses ideas. I think the EGW kit is the way to go at this point. Especially since it includes the oversized disconnector and colt leaf. I just wish I could understand and diagnose the issue without throwing parts at it.

 

 

I'll keep the thread updated once there's more to add.

[DrewM]

Trigger bounce is not really the actual trigger doing something, although if you had a super heavy trigger, maybe?  But when folks say trigger bounce they generally mean the ‘shock’ of the slide slamming forward jars the hammer off the hooks of the sear and you get hammer follow….or if you are lucky it will hit the half cock hooks and stop there.  
 

I hate to speak ill of an unknown gun, but don’t compare the Taurus to the STI’s - you even mentioned you had to make new pins because they were so loose…how do you know your new pins have located the hammer and sear in the right spot?  
 

I seriously wouldn’t try and make a 2lbtrigger on that gun until you can do a deep inspection on fit and safety functions.  You’re probably never going to get a reliable ignition setup going that light with those components….or worse you have a home built automatic weapon (I’m guessing Canada is just as strict about that as the US…lol)

Edited yesterday at 12:08 AM by DrewM

[392heminut]

2 hours ago, DrewM said:

Trigger bounce is not really the actual trigger doing something, although if you had a super heavy trigger, maybe?  But when folks say trigger bounce they generally mean the ‘shock’ of the slide slamming forward jars the hammer off the hooks of the sear and you get hammer follow…

 

Actually, trigger bounce is a thing! The older Colt Gold Cups had that wide trigger in them and the shoe was steel.Trigger bounce was a problem in those guns and Colt put a little spring loaded lever on the bottom right side of the sear to absorb the trigger momentum. They were damn near impossible to put back together without a slave pin to hold that lever in place!

 

Usually what happens with these light trigger pulls is when the slide slams forward the trigger moves back enough to move the sear nose out of the hammer hooks. That's why when you hold the trigger back and slam the slide it doesn't happen.

[TimBoettcher]

1 hour ago, 392heminut said:

Actually, trigger bounce is a thing! The older Colt Gold Cups had that wide trigger in them and the shoe was steel.Trigger bounce was a problem in those guns and Colt put a little spring loaded lever on the bottom right side of the sear to absorb the trigger momentum. They were damn near impossible to put back together without a slave pin to hold that lever in place!

 

Usually what happens with these light trigger pulls is when the slide slams forward the trigger moves back enough to move the sear nose out of the hammer hooks. That's why when you hold the trigger back and slam the slide it doesn't happen.

You are correct, sir.

[DrewM]

9 hours ago, 392heminut said:

Actually, trigger bounce is a thing! The older Colt Gold Cups had that wide trigger in them and the shoe was steel.Trigger bounce was a problem in those guns and Colt put a little spring loaded lever on the bottom right side of the sear to absorb the trigger momentum. They were damn near impossible to put back together without a slave pin to hold that lever in place!

 

Usually what happens with these light trigger pulls is when the slide slams forward the trigger moves back enough to move the sear nose out of the hammer hooks. That's why when you hold the trigger back and slam the slide it doesn't happen.

Yep, sorry, I was more talking in a more modern sense - the Taurus should have a pretty normal AL/trigger, but the wide Gold Cup was so bad that it would happen on nearly every trigger press which led to that spring setup.  I believe it was also an issue in the earlier 1911 days as the trigger shoe's were still steel and the bow was a bit more stout...so as people made longer shoes as part of customizing they had crappy triggers and trigger bounce.  I think that is how we got the Videki speed trigger, I think he was the first (or at least one of the first) to use an Aluminum shoe and then also cut those 3 holes in the shoe - I want to say it was a pretty big deal at the time as most folks didn't think the Al shoe/trigger bow would hold together (they were pinned and glued together in those early days - IIRC)?  

Although in this case, I suppose it could be trigger bounce?  I just never heard of this still being a thing...most of the time when people say trigger bounce these days they don't really mean that, you get that situation where the hammer unloads a little, the sear moves a little, etc and you get hammer follow.  

Edited yesterday at 12:12 PM by DrewM

[sfinney]

More likely the impact of the slide is jarring the hammer/sear interface enough for the hammer hooks to "bounce" off the sear nose, and fall. On old style hammers this would be a fall to half cock, damaging the sear nose.

This is more likely than the weight of the trigger itself on a modern pistol.

 

In a lot of cases this "follow" will often happen on an empty chamber, if it stripped a round it might not.....

Old school trigger jobs, especially ones set up in a Bullseye style did require careful manipulation and lowering of hammers manually. I had an old Clark pistol that would follow every time if not handled as per instructions - intentionally. It was how they did things before materials improved and parts started coming off milling machines.

 

Hammer / sears are not drop in parts especially if you mix and match brands and stock sears / custom hammers.  An already tuned ignition kit is the way to go, unless (even if?) you have a jig and are decent at sear engagement and angles.

Edited yesterday at 01:10 PM by sfinney

[MadBomber]

You also might want to try a four leaf sear spring from Clark Custom.  One of the middle leaves puts positive tension on the back of the trigger bow.  I've been running them for decades now and I swear by them.

Edited yesterday at 07:56 PM by MadBomber

[Dr Mitch]

Try a match sear spring. The one you have might be mil-spec or closer to mil-spec.