Steel Challenge- Limited Optics 2.0

[Joe4d]

LO will be a thing in SC for same reason it is in USPSA,, doesnt matter if its splitting hairs with CO and Open.. All about the sponsor dollars...  Slide ride 1911/2011 are being mass produced.. Open guns are not.. and there is a perception of some mega advantage with the external hammer SA design

[GKB]

1 hour ago, schmidtg said:

SCSA doesn't tell us how peak times are set so we have a wildly inconsistent standard for GM between divisions. 

Take the winning time at WSSC for the last 2 years and average them.  The new Peak Time for that division = 110% of that value.

[bigtimelarry]

2 hours ago, blackss06 said:

 CO and LO are absolutely not similar compared to LO and open. 
 

Single action only.

Magwell. (only dense mfs think this doesn’t make a difference in Steel Challenge, it 100% bolsters grip and allows for much quicker recovery on non ideal draws)

Race holster.

 

Those things alone can account for 90% of the difference in peak times. There is no power factor requirement for SCSA, comps are not needed. 
 

Slide ride dot means you’re much closer to the bore axis.

People just want hand outs for higher classifications instead of shooting better. Running a LO gun in open is maybe a 1-2% disadvantage against an actual purpose built steel gun.
 

Of course BJ lost the main match by .01 with a CO gun (a real one, not your OPEN gun) against an open gun so at the top end there’s literally a .01% difference. Maybe we should make the peak time for LO 83.51 to appease all the whiners. 
 

 

 

 

BJ Norris doesn't count.. In Steel Challenge, it's BJ Norris then everybody else.. LOL.. 

[zzt]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:07 PM, Joe4d said:

think I have asked this before,, somewhere gathering dust there has got to be lots of SS 1911's drilled and tapped for various optics.  What were the big tube sights ? aimpoint ?

 

Mostly MicroDots in various configurations, then Aimpoints.  Most are too big and heavy to use for SCSA.

[blackss06]

Yall a bunch of silly gooses. May your 65% LO ranking make you feel better than your 62% open ranking.

[Joe4d]

17 minutes ago, blackss06 said:

Yall a bunch of silly gooses. May your 65% LO ranking make you feel better than your 62% open ranking.

yeh no kidding,, having divisions AND classes is pretty dumb.,, I mean think about it, If I can get B class with a Jennings strato blaster,, and you get B class with a Limcat open gun.. what difference does it make ? We are both B class shooters with our equipment..  It only matters at the GM level.
Amazingly it tends to be the non GM's upest the most about percieved equipment advantages..
If me and you are the same skill level,, and I show up with a new gun that really is better than yours,, POOF I am gonna end up in a higher class and not be shooting against you.
Get rid of all divisions,, run what you brung,, create narrower classes.

 

[Hoops]

In my opinion on the subject:
 

Standards are never based on fastest or slowest times in industry or sports.  In manufacturing,  performance is expressed as earned hours (time) which is hours worked compared to the hour budget.  
 

SCSA earned time is shooter time compared to fixed Peak Times.  Someone will always be the fastest and the slowest…..whether welding or shooting.  The trick is finding a reasonable sweet spot somewhere in between.  
 

I think we can all agree that in principle, a Carry Optic gun would be slower than a Limited Optic gun which is slower than an Open gun.  The question is by how much….what would be the spread between each gun?  What makes this particularly more difficult is there are no actual historical times for a division that doesn’t exist (Limited Optics).  People that do show up for a match with their Limited Optics gun get tossed into the catch all division of Open….making historical Open times more subjective.
 

The absence of empirical data  leads to speculation from all of us depending on our own perspectives and assumptions.

 

Very few people shoot a true Open gun.  They are expensive and can be finicky with minor 9mm ammo.  38 super is non-existent in SCSA.  STI recognized that Open guns were not selling and re-branded themselves as Staccato selling optics ready 2011’s for less cost.  They were right….the demand for a Limited Optics gun is strong.

 

SCSA is a sport and a business.  Bringing new product to the sport should be a consideration by the BOD’s for the 98% of shooters who will never be GM and just want to enjoy shooting.  Optics is here to stay.  As USPSA has shown, Limited Optics is the fasting percentage growth division.  It probably would be in SCSA.  

Hopefully USPSA will be publishing a member survey early July.  I’m looking forward to how the survey is worded which is important.  
 

Since I started this topic I feel it’s only fair that I offer this request…..Please be considerate to your fellow shooters who may have an opinion different than yours.  Hopefully then more people would be inclined to comment.

thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Phil]

Yeah Hoops, that welding remark hits a little close to home!

Yeesh, some of my targets are still together!

LOL

[Dr Mitch]

I shot my LO gun at Steel Challenge for the first time last month.  Was very surprised that there wasn’t an LO division.  Steel Challenge should definitely mirror USPSA’s divisions.

[shred]

FWIW, in the "old days", everyone shot Open guns in Open at the Steel Challenge, mostly with their regular USPSA Open setup and a few with swiss-cheesed "Steel guns".  JJ Racaza the years he won, shot his normal USPSA major load or something close to it.  BJ Norris shot 1200+fps loads so the bullet would get to the stop plate faster.

 

IME (several finishes in the shootoffs when they had those and I was training a lot) there is absolutely a performance difference between an Open gun and a LO or CO gun.  Might not matter at the B-class level or at the very tip top where one extra shot on the scoresheet drops you 3 places down, but it's there.

 

[Hoops]

4 hours ago, shred said:

FWIW, in the "old days", everyone shot Open guns in Open at the Steel Challenge, mostly with their regular USPSA Open setup and a few with swiss-cheesed "Steel guns".  JJ Racaza the years he won, shot his normal USPSA major load or something close to it.  BJ Norris shot 1200+fps loads so the bullet would get to the stop plate faster.

 

IME (several finishes in the shootoffs when they had those and I was training a lot) there is absolutely a performance difference between an Open gun and a LO or CO gun.  Might not matter at the B-class level or at the very tip top where one extra shot on the scoresheet drops you 3 places down, but it's there.

 

Well stated.

 

The questions to be asked in the upcoming July survey for Limited Optics have been posted on USPSA’s website under BOD minutes…..Steel Challenge Director report.

[zzt]

I'm not sure Open times are 'polluted" enough to make a meaningful difference.  Yes, a lot of 'not real Open guns' get lumped in.  However, that is at lower levels.   I shot with two shooters on Sat who had been bumped to Open.  Both had compensators.  I'm not sure they even scored a D on any stage.  The really good shooters, shooting 'real' Open guns are setting the peak times.  So, I think comparisons are valid.

[joseywales]

On 6/22/2024 at 6:29 PM, schmidtg said:

SCSA doesn't tell us how peak times are set so we have a wildly inconsistent standard for GM between divisions...

Here's a description on how SCSA calculated the latest peak times, as well as a brief history on how they used to do it.

Jeff Jones (doing most of the talking) is on the SCSA committee.  Starts @ 6:15

 

 

[TheOneTrueAndre]

I like the idea of LO in SC, I bought a good amount of my gear before actually knowing any rules cause I had an opportunity to get an Atlas Athena somewhat randomly. It shoots great but it def qualifies for OPEN and doesn't feel particularly competitive against my buddy's Brazos Custom 38 Super.

Imo the only reason NOT to have the classes is for people at level 3 matches who want prizes being annoyed that only 3 other people shot LO. If we're gonna cut prizes idgaf.

 

But for personally just tracking your scores divisions are important, I like being able to compare my scores against people with similar gear and view frame mounted optics as a huge boost. There are lots of arguments that popple holes and comps what-have-you don't make much of a difference without major pf, and I def see lots of people shooting mouse fart loads in SC but the optic feels like a big diff to me.

[TheOneTrueAndre]

4 hours ago, joseywales said:

Here's a description on how SCSA calculated the latest peak times, as well as a brief history on how they used to do it.

Jeff Jones (doing most of the talking) is on the SCSA committee.  Starts @ 6:15

 

 

 

Jeff is my coach! I've been talking to him about shooting LO without classifications so that we can start collecting the data to calculate Peaks, I'll be using my Athena.