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support hand grip question - grip technique & muzzle oscillations


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Hi! 2 part question:

First, I'm curious how most of you experience support hand grip pressure/placement.

I'd like to know:

1) Support hand grip side: how much of your pressure gets actually transfered to the grip/panel, and how much to the fingertips of the firing hand?

(e.g. 70% means 70% grip, 30% firing hand fingers)

2) Firing hand grip side: how much of your support hand pressure gets transferred through the firing hand onto the grip?

(eg 50% means half of the force, 0% means all gets absorbed by the firing hand without really increasing the pressure onto the grip below by support hand pressure)

3) Whats your approx hand size in inches? (see diagram)

https://cdn.skatepro.com/upload/2020/10/wrist_middle_finger_length_hand_length_1_4441.jpg

 

Second, I'm asking because I got quite big hands which seems fine for a .50 Desert eagles or some .45/10mm full size pistols, but most 9s are a pita.

For me it seems clamping down with my support hand doesn't work too well, unless the grip is big enought. But for most 9mm grips it's like 1) maybe 30-40% gets tranferrred to the grip, rest is on the fingers, but also quite limited in how much pressure I can apply, since too much (which is not that much) and my fingers get pushed off towards the front strap, leaving the exercise... 2) For the firing hand side it'l like maybe 10% pressure gets trough, but almost all of the pressure gets just applied to the firing hand without really any effect on the grip panel below, because underneath its almost hollow unless there are really pronounced big palm swell grips.

3) my hand size is about 8.5"

 

Thats probably why isoceles push-pull techniques worked really well for me so far, however lately I'm trying to figure out how to shoot a heavy CZ type SA/DA gun agressively but currently I'm having a hard time with oscillations that go below the POA. What helped a bit was to torque the muzzle down with my firing hands wrist and torque the muzzle up with my support hands wrist, kind of like a push-pull but with up/down torques... but the problem I'm having with it is that if this torque isn't perfectly balanced, shots will go high or low pretty easily. Mabe it also needs some getting used to. Most of the 2nd shots on doubles were a bit high, but I might subcounciously followed the dot out of curiousity causing that.

Currently running 130pf 115gn ammo with a 11pound recoil spring, but I'd prefer to work this out with technique and not a lighter recoil spring...

Around .20 splits work fine, around by then the oscillation stopped and all the shots make a nice fist size group at 10m/y, but approaching ~.14 will usually send the 2nd shot well into the C. With a light polymer frame gun (G17/ PDP) I haven't experienced that before (bu thats also what I'm used to)

 

Any ideas/approaches?

Edited by impact
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Any ideas/approaches?

Stop trying to muscle the gun around in recoil.  Let it do it's thing and as long as your hands aren't sliding around, they're good.  

 

Ben Stoeger has some videos on Youtube about how little force is actually required to return a pistol to point of aim.

 

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2 hours ago, shred said:

Stop trying to muscle the gun around in recoil.  Let it do it's thing and as long as your hands aren't sliding around, they're good.  

 

Ben Stoeger has some videos on Youtube about how little force is actually required to return a pistol to point of aim.

 

I seem to recall Brian's book also mentioned just letting the gun recoil as long as the sights came back to where they were.  

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Watch Jerry Miculek’s YouTube on how to speed shoot.  He goes over in depth all of his mechanics and reasons behind his grip!  
 

it has helped us immensely!  He’s a legend 

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I'm getting a feeling that you're overthinking it.

I usually tell new shooters that some 70% of the strength gripping the gun should come from your support hand but that's just to illustrate the point that you need to use your left (usually) hand more than what most people think.

Exact percentages of force transferred to the grip - I have no idea!

 

Sounds to me like you're trying to change a technique that has worked for you in the past and I'm not sure that's the way to go. A lot of people (myself included) find the Shadow 2 grips too thing/slippery. I'd honestly first look into trying new grip panels to see which ones fit your technique and hands. Armanov offers some pretty beefy aluminum grips.

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Funny how the recommendations go in the exact opposite directions... some suggest to relax the firing hand, some suggest to try out jerrys methods which seem to involve a lot of tension.

But thank you anyways, sometimes you just have to hear the same thing multiple times or from different people/perspectives to get a better idea.

 

I did some testing using a slowmo cam and by trying different things (in/decreasing tension in certain areas, going from a 7 all the way up to 13 pound recoil spring, using a variation of ball and dummy drill to see what my "recoil reflex" was like) I was able to draw some conclusions.

 

The boring part:

I settled on the stock spring for now, after watching unlocking slide velocity inclrease noticably and bottoming out on the lower poundage springs might also not be too optic friendly. Also it seems that the increased impact upon bottoming out during the opening cycle increased disturbances more then decreasing upon closing. I kinda thought it would play out something like this, but it was interesting trying it out actually.

 

The interesting part:

Relaxing push-pull and the firing hand more helped to get rid of the oscillations but then just took forever to return. It came down to the same spot, yes, but in an unacceptable time frame. .30s or more. Also muzzle flip was quite pronounced. But at least it still didn't slip inside my hands.

I think my problems came mostly down to the lack of wrist tension and/or integrity. By looking at the slomo footage, most muzzle flip came from the wrist. Also, during one-shot return with partly dummies I noticed that my wrist wasn't staying with my forearms during the "return reflex". Timing was perfect, which was easy to see with a hammer fired pistol (no pushing shots down), but the reflex included some slight collapsing of the wrist... maybe even some ever so slightly relaxing as I pulled the trigger (wasn't able to see on camera, but felt a bit funny on some of the dummy "shots")... so I grealy suspect that to be the main source of my issues. The return reflex itself wasn't brutal or anything... just a very gentle, well timed dip, but coming too much from the wrist, and not shoulders. With the lighter weight of a glock I didn't noticed this a much, because the oscilations died away a lot quicker and had less magnitude, but were present also there.

So I'll put a lot of one shot-return with focus on my wrists on the menu, until I experiment further with grip tension and technique. Seems to be the single biggest cause holding me back right now.

 

I guess I just shot PCC for too long...

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The reason you hear differing opinions is because there are different schools of thought. This usually means that either works. 

 

For me, the death grip doesn't do much. I think of my support hand the way I think of it when shooting a rifle - it creates a U-shaped cup in which the gun rests. For pistols, the primary role of my support hand is not anything recoil-related. Instead, the role is to control the gun during fast, hard trigger pull. If I notice that I'm pulling shots as I fire them, I squeeze harder with support hand and chill a bit with monkeying the trigger. But it's all about trigger control and not recoil. 

 

If my gun "dances around" too much during rapid fire, I focus on my wrists and shoulders, not on the grip. If the gun is not slipping in your grip and your wrists and shoulders were fully rigidly locked, there would be no muzzle movement, the same as if you were shooting from a vise. 

 

So, to me, grip is mostly related to trigger control and enabling hard trigger operation without moving the gun. For recoil control, it's the wrists and shoulders. The truth is likely somewhere in between. 

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I’ve started shooting a lot of knock down steel and PCC looked liked so much fun I got one.  Quickly noticed that during practice if I shot the PCC first my pistol was hard to control.  Apart from the trigger it’s quite a different set of skills.

 

I did a Ron Avery TPC course and I adopted the camming of the support hand to lock the wrist.  Works fine but when I went to open it required putting the racker on the right side of the gun.

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Yeah, it seems death gripping doesn't do much, but it's probably an easy fix for beginners, since by tensing up all you got one also probably tenses up the wrists that cause the majority of muzzle flip when too loose.

It's just funny how a gun that I suspected to be easier to shoot than my glocks actually revealed a deficiency in my technique/form.

 

Also funny how MikeyScuba mentions Ron Avery. I recall seeing an older video of him doing a demonstration of seperating wrist tension from hand/finger tension by some sort of handshake. One of the few I actually learned a lot from but never actually met in person. May he rest in peace.

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I'm pretty much with IVC. The grip gets the sights/dot on target. You can find out a lot about grip by just paying attention during dry fire. For me, if the dot isn't on target it usually means I need more support had grip. Same thing with elbows up, elbows down stuff (Ron Avery). Play around to see what works for you. And a lot depends on your hand size and shape.

 

I'm not fast enough that the muzzle rise/fall cycle is a rate determining step. But I do want the dot to fall back to where my attention is focused.

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