Scoring

[PK1911]

Does the shooter get the higher score if a bullet hole TOUCHES the perferation?

[ddc]

I was going to answer "yes" but I thought I'd check the rule book.

 

The USPSA rule book explicitly addresses this but a cursory look through the IDPA rule book didn't reveal similar language.

(Sometimes I forget which sport I'm shooting that day... lol)

 

It is very possible I missed it. 

 

The closest thing I could find is:

 

4.5.1 When a Safety Officer has a reasonable doubt on a scoring call (including penalties) the SO will award the better
score to the shooter. This also applies to possible doubles. However, this does not automatically mean that
every miss is a double.

 

Hopefully somebody will come along shortly and straighten us out...

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by ddc

[PK1911]

I found in USPSA the rule that says if it TOUCHES, you get the higher score. Like you I found nothing on the subject for IDPA.  thanks

[truespode]

This may help

https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-overlays-and-scoring/

[Racinready300ex]

Best I can find is 4.5.4

 

"A radial tear must not be used to give a shooter a better score. If the actual area of the bullet hole does not reach the next better scoring ring, the shooter gets the lower score...."

 

You could make the case this means touch the perf. No clear cut answer, I've always called it as touching but that could just be a hold over from USPSA. 

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, truespode said:

This may help

https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-overlays-and-scoring/

 

Wrong game

[truespode]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Wrong game

 

 

Ooof. Apologies.

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Best I can find is 4.5.4

 

"A radial tear must not be used to give a shooter a better score. If the actual area of the bullet hole does not reach the next better scoring ring, the shooter gets the lower score...."

 

You could make the case this means touch the perf. No clear cut answer, I've always called it as touching but that could just be a hold over from USPSA. 

 

I think that example is better than the one I gave. 

To my mind that is equivalent to "touching the perf" but it's IDPA so ...

[Buzzdraw]

For the purposes of IDPA, the bullet grease ring must touch the higher scoring zone to gain the value.  Radial tears are specifically not considered.  IDPA has never allowed the use of scoring plugs, overlays or similar.  It's a "does the SO see it or not".  SO is required to give shooter benefit of a doubt in the process.  That is how it is done in IDPA.

 

[ddc]

10 hours ago, Buzzdraw said:

For the purposes of IDPA, the bullet grease ring must touch the higher scoring zone to gain the value.  Radial tears are specifically not considered.  IDPA has never allowed the use of scoring plugs, overlays or similar.  It's a "does the SO see it or not".  SO is required to give shooter benefit of a doubt in the process.  That is how it is done in IDPA.

 

 

yeah I think we get that and I would suspect that is our experience as well.

 

We are commenting upon the fact that the way the rule book is structured you have to do at least a little "reading between the lines" to come up with your conclusion.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Buzzdraw said:

For the purposes of IDPA, the bullet grease ring must touch the higher scoring zone to gain the value.  Radial tears are specifically not considered.  IDPA has never allowed the use of scoring plugs, overlays or similar.  It's a "does the SO see it or not".  SO is required to give shooter benefit of a doubt in the process.  That is how it is done in IDPA.

 

 

Yeah, I think that's generally how it's done but it's being pointed out that it's not really covered clearly in the rule book. It's been a long time, but I've run into RO's saying you need to break the perf. When it came up I disagreed but didn't attempt to look for a rule on it. 

 

I've also found over the years the "does the SO see it or not" is referred to as benefit of doubt goes to shooter. On the ground this gets called really inconsistently. If you shoot enough majors with a junior or a lady on your squad you'll see them getting a little more benefit compared to someone shooting as a MA who the SO's know is going to be in contention for the win.  I don't even think it's typically intentional, it's probably a subconscious thing we do. Kinda like how women typically get lighter sentences than men for the same crime. 

[konkapot]

I'm going to quibble a little bit; I am quite positive that the disparity IS intentional. 

 

I've dabbled in the IDPA pond on/off since 2005 or so, and that is a group that is desperately in need of a well written rulebook consistently applied. 

 

Never seen so many shooters who just shoot "for fun" in a hurry to hand out procedurals to each other. 

[Buzzdraw]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:20 PM, Buzzdraw said:

For the purposes of IDPA, the bullet grease ring must touch the higher scoring zone to gain the value.  Radial tears are specifically not considered.  IDPA has never allowed the use of scoring plugs, overlays or similar.  It's a "does the SO see it or not".  SO is required to give shooter benefit of a doubt in the process.  That is how it is done in IDPA.

 

The above info, including some decent pixes, can be found in the current Certified SO training curriculum. 

[Buzzdraw]

As a long standing USPSA CRO, I have no problem in the use of overlays.  USPSA RO training does a good job of showing the multiple uses of the pair of overlays.  I have always held the opinion that it takes just a jiff for the RO with the overlays in their pocket (you DO carry them on your person at the match, don't you?) can quickly and fairly determine a proper, unbiased score.  If there is a hint of a dispute, the target is pulled and set to the side so the match continues timely.

 

The IDPA hierarchy has some sort of "allergy" to overlays.  Wish they would go to overlays.

 

[ddc]

15 minutes ago, Buzzdraw said:

The above info, including some decent pixes, can be found in the current Certified SO training curriculum. 

 

Too bad it can't be found in the rule book which is where most would think to look.

 

And as far as overlays are concerned I agree about the allergy; for some reason if you bring up overlays the old guard just about has a stroke.

[Joe4d]

Personally I would score it like it was a steel plate..  Bullet hole Touching the perf would ding the steel... Hit.

 

[Jim Watson]

20 hours ago, ddc said:

And as far as overlays are concerned I agree about the allergy; for some reason if you bring up overlays the old guard just about has a stroke.

 

I recall the time the hotshot wanted to plug a hole with a bullet.  "We do it that way all the time in Arkansas."  Well, we don't do it that way in Alabama, buster, down one.  

 

A PPC shooter once paid the challenge fee to get my score of one shot reviewed.  The MD looked at the target, called the questioned shot out, looked at all the other shots where I had "given the shooter the benefit of the doubt" and just shook his head and walked away.  

[Buzzdraw]

I recall NRA events allowing special scoring plugs to be used in some cases.  Often they had a clear magnifier at the edge.  Could only plug the hole ONE time and only with an official plug.  I shot a lot in Arkansas and don't recall meeting the "stuff a bullet in the hole" shooter but would not put that past some shooters. I can tell stories of Doubles George in AR many years ago at USPSA matches.  Every one of his misses was a double, that was until the overlay came out.

 

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, Buzzdraw said:

I recall NRA events allowing special scoring plugs to be used in some cases.  Often they had a clear magnifier at the edge.  Could only plug the hole ONE time and only with an official plug.  I shot a lot in Arkansas and don't recall meeting the "stuff a bullet in the hole" shooter but would not put that past some shooters. I can tell stories of Doubles George in AR many years ago at USPSA matches.  Every one of his misses was a double, that was until the overlay came out.

 

 

Every hit on a no shoot could have been a double too!

[Jim Watson]

10 hours ago, Buzzdraw said:

I recall NRA events allowing special scoring plugs to be used in some cases.  Often they had a clear magnifier at the edge.

 

Those NRA plugs are a neat piece of design work.  They have a bullet shaped plug to start in the hole, a flange of bullet diameter to make the call, and a circular magnifier to make it clear.

They used to be made by Rig, the gun grease company, now sold by Freeland.  

When my club was shooting BR50 they used the .22 plug a lot, over a board to support the target with bullseye size holes to clear the plug.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jim Watson

[Racinready300ex]

On 7/15/2023 at 10:49 PM, Buzzdraw said:

The above info, including some decent pixes, can be found in the current Certified SO training curriculum. 

 

So to really be up on the rules a IDPA shooter needs to have the Rule book, the Equipment Rule book, the Match Admin Book, the SO training book, and in my area the AC has a list of "AC Rulings". 

 

Clear as mud.