Icore division rules question; "modification" meaning

[photog]

 

What I don't understand is the meaning of "modification" (rulebook term) as used in the ICORE rulebook section 6.6 through 6.9.

If a gun comes with a 'factory feature' (my term) such as an under lug, barrel weight, grip weight, or any other modification designed to increase the weight, compensating, venting, or metering ports, or an optical sight - is this the same as a "modification"?

There is no reference to factory installed items vice a modification, or what is meant by modification that I can find. But the rulebook categorizes revolvers based on what "modifications" the gun has. So I'm not sure what it means to have a "modification".

If the book actually means "installed feature" to categorize guns, why do they use the term "modification"?

If the book actually means "non-factory, aftermarket, or non-standard feature" (like explained in 6.9.2 for barrels), why not use better terminology?

 

 

[Joe4d]

thats why icore rules are in a pamphlet,  they expect people to use some common sense. 

 

 

[RangerMcFadden]

English is my first language so I don’t see a problem. But if you have a suggestion to make the rules clearer please fill out the form on page 19 and send it to the rules director.

 

To answer your question. If it has a comp, port and/or a sight it’s in open division. No matter who installed the comp, port(s) and/or sight.

[photog]

5 hours ago, RangerMcFadden said:

To answer your question. If it has a comp, port and/or a sight it’s in open division. No matter who installed the comp, port(s) and/or sight.

So what this means to me is its a feature, not a modification.

Its what I thought it meant, but that's not how it reads., and that's not how its applied.

 

Classic division rule 6.9.3.:

An under lug, barrel weight, grip weight, or any other modification designed to increase the weight
of the revolver is not permitted in Classic Division.

 

But change that wording to its intended meaning,

 

An under lug, barrel weight, grip weight, or any other modification feature designed to increase the weight
of the revolver is not permitted in Classic Division,

 

and now a Smith 586 is no longer legal in Classic, it has a heavy under lug that does nothing but add weight. Yes its a oem factory "feature", just like the comp ports on a Smith 19 Carry Comp are oem factory features.

 

To me its an inconsistency. Thanks for the advice on making a rules suggestion. 

 

[MWP]

I hope, and think, this is not the intent of the rule book in icore. 
 

I can’t say I’ve read much of the icore rulebook when it comes to divisions and modifications, but I don’t see a competitive issue with allowing any of those things listed in that paragraph. Which means we should submit a rules suggestion to just get rid of that paragraph? 

[photog]

I was looking for 8 shot wheelio to compete in Limited Icore/ revo uspsa. So i looked at the rules to determine what was legal, and yes I've been called a "gamer"; but these are games -  so look at the rules and you won't be shocked to learn them on the firing line just prior to the start signal.

In an 8 shot, the Taurus 608 would be a great budget option - except it has factory barrel compensating (a competitive advantage over standard barrel). Same with a lot of Smith performance center guns, and that pushes the gun into Open, and then you need a dot and a lot more weight (and money) to be competitive fit in, when all I want is an 8 round minor 9/38 limited gun that I will only compete with occasionally. But those compensating ports, to me, aren't modifications if they come that way from the factory, same way the underlug on a 686 is a factory part that is added to add weight (a competitive advantage over my Model 10 with no underlug).

 

So yeah, I guess I'll write up a suggestion per the rulebook form.

 

[MWP]

1 hour ago, photog said:

I was looking for 8 shot wheelio to compete in Limited Icore/ revo uspsa. So i looked at the rules to determine what was legal, and yes I've been called a "gamer"; but these are games -  so look at the rules and you won't be shocked to learn them on the firing line just prior to the start signal.

In an 8 shot, the Taurus 608 would be a great budget option - except it has factory barrel compensating (a competitive advantage over standard barrel). Same with a lot of Smith performance center guns, and that pushes the gun into Open, and then you need a dot and a lot more weight (and money) to be competitive fit in, when all I want is an 8 round minor 9/38 limited gun that I will only compete with occasionally. But those compensating ports, to me, aren't modifications if they come that way from the factory, same way the underlug on a 686 is a factory part that is added to add weight (a competitive advantage over my Model 10 with no underlug).

 

So yeah, I guess I'll write up a suggestion per the rulebook form.

 

 

In theory the Taurus ports would be easy to close up. Tap the holes and put screws in them. 

I’m not sure why you’d want to add weight to an open revolver to be competitive in ICORE? 
 

Off the top of my head I’m not familiar with any Smith 8 shot guns that are permanently ported. Pretty much everyone is shooting a 627 or 929, with a sprinkle of Ruger Super GP thrown in.

[revoman]

1 hour ago, MWP said:

 

In theory the Taurus ports would be easy to close up. Tap the holes and put screws in them. 

I’m not sure why you’d want to add weight to an open revolver to be competitive in ICORE? 
 

Off the top of my head I’m not familiar with any Smith 8 shot guns that are permanently ported. Pretty much everyone is shooting a 627 or 929, with a sprinkle of Ruger Super GP thrown in.

Here is a factory ported 627. I saw one of these years ago in Des Moines at a gun show. I passed it up as I was not looking for a ported gun. If I remember right I think Mike Carmoney bought it. It definitely was not going for this price. For a collector the price might be right but for a shooter no. It is just a 627 with factory ported barrel. You can buy a 627 and have it ported or custom barrel built for a lot less. 

[MWP]

23 minutes ago, revoman said:

Here is a factory ported 627. I saw one of these years ago in Des Moines at a gun show. I passed it up as I was not looking for a ported gun. If I remember right I think Mike Carmoney bought it. It definitely was not going for this price. For a collector the price might be right but for a shooter no. It is just a 627 with factory ported barrel. You can buy a 627 and have it ported or custom barrel built for a lot less. 

Sure there are a few extremely rare examples out there. But none recent that I am familiar with. Other than the 608, which I don’t believe has been seriously fielded by anyone yet? 

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, photog said:

I was looking for 8 shot wheelio to compete in Limited Icore/ revo uspsa. So i looked at the rules to determine what was legal, and yes I've been called a "gamer"; but these are games -  so look at the rules and you won't be shocked to learn them on the firing line just prior to the start signal.

In an 8 shot, the Taurus 608 would be a great budget option - except it has factory barrel compensating (a competitive advantage over standard barrel). Same with a lot of Smith performance center guns, and that pushes the gun into Open, and then you need a dot and a lot more weight (and money) to be competitive fit in, when all I want is an 8 round minor 9/38 limited gun that I will only compete with occasionally. But those compensating ports, to me, aren't modifications if they come that way from the factory, same way the underlug on a 686 is a factory part that is added to add weight (a competitive advantage over my Model 10 with no underlug).

 

So yeah, I guess I'll write up a suggestion per the rulebook form.

 

One can not insinuate that an underlug on a factory firearm is added just for weight/competitive advantage.  It may well be just cause it "looks" good.  

If you want a competitive/gamer gun for USPSA it's an 8 shot 5"+ of whatever manufacturer you like and/or can afford.  The same gun will work in ICORE Limited.  ICORE tends to try NOT to over legalize the rule book.  Now if you want a truly gamer ICORE Limited Revolver, find/make a 10 shot 32 caliber Revolver.  Just no Compensator, porting or optics.

[photog]

22 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

One can not insinuate that an underlug on a factory firearm is added just for weight/competitive advantage.  It may well be just cause it "looks" good.  

 

This is exactly why it should be more clear in the rules. Its either a feature on the gun or its not, its shouldn't be subjective as to why its there, or who put it there.

[Alaskan454]

The goal of the ICORE rulebook is to keep it simple.  If you think it's too complicated propose a clarification. But, for the love of God, don't ADD any rules.