Duane Thomas Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Yer welcome! I feel exactly the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 In order to get away with round dumping in IDPA, all you have to do is (1) cheat, (2) lie, and there's really not a damn thing they can do about it.I do have to wonder how big a problem rounding is, in the overall scheme of things. Duane, et. al.; I have seen it first hand. I admit it is pretty hard to be sure on one stage, but just follow someone around for a whole match, and when they always need an extra shot or two when it makes for an advantageous reload, and almost never make up any other shots, then it becomes more clear. Two people did it pretty regularly at the Idaho State match this year, and one of them is on video doing a two round dump so they could reload while moving along the side of a pickup truck. (Neither were called for it in the multiple times they did it.) Since I was free to roam around on match day, I saw the pattern of dumping that two shooters displayed. So some people clearly have no problem with (1) cheat and (2) lie, to gain their chance at 15 minutes of fame. Many folks just can't compete on a level playing field. Personally I like what Matt Burkett said about shooting IDPA which was something like "Just ask the SO how he wants you to shoot the stage, then do it faster and more accurately than everyone else." Now there is a guy that doesn't mind a level playing field, and I admire him for it. I suspect there are way more people dumping and getting away with it, than there are people being called for it, and not doing it. Most SOs I know are too afraid to be wrong, or too afraid of controversy to call the call. Many, and maybe most clubs have never given a FTDR in their entire existence. Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 So some people clearly have no problem with (1) cheat and (2) lie, to gain their chance at 15 minutes of fame. Now that's just sad. Unfortunately I don't really see anything we can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 A simple cure is to get rid of the d*** rule. See Duane I did not use that nasty word again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 A simple cure is to get rid of the d*** rule. See Duane I did not use that nasty word again. Gotta love that logic. And the solution to bank robbery is to get rid of the law against it. Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Let's see Ken, we should keep a rule that cannot be enforced and is contrary to the definition of Vickers Count. Sounds like a great rule to me. Better yet we should not complain about it. Guess I have never been one of those "follow the crowd, don't voice your opinion, keep in line, don't question authority" kind of guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Let's see Ken, we should keep a rule that cannot be enforced and is contrary to the definition of Vickers Count. Sounds like a great rule to me. Better yet we should not complain about it. Guess I have never been one of those "follow the crowd, don't voice your opinion, keep in line, don't question authority" kind of guys. oooooo touchy. I didn't say any of that, but thanks for escalating. Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Hmmmm, thought that was exactly what you said. This darn 80 IQ think keeps tripping me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 I have seen it first hand. I admit it is pretty hard to be sure on one stage, but just follow someone around for a whole match, and when they always need an extra shot or two when it makes for an advantageous reload, and almost never make up any other shots, then it becomes more clear. Two people did it pretty regularly at the Idaho State match this year, and one of them is on video doing a two round dump so they could reload while moving along the side of a pickup truck. (Neither were called for it in the multiple times they did it.) Since I was free to roam around on match day, I saw the pattern of dumping that two shooters displayed. If I may be so bold as to ask, what did you do with this information, given your concern expressed here to maintain the "spirit" of the game regarding the "taking a dump" rule (which by the way is adding time to a stage run times in most cases but very few realize this). Did you notify the MD or and stage RO's to be on the lookout for this at a sanctioned match and if so what was their response(s)? I would be curious to know what the MD tought of the rule regarding detection and enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 (edited) I don't see the rule as contradictory to the Vicker's count. Depending on the COF it's either very easy to call or very difficult. It's usually obvious and a lot of times SO's will let it slide giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Goes back to COF design. The concept of dumping rounds runs counter to the spirit of the game. In a truly defensive scenario dumping rounds raises several serious problems. Therefore it seems reasonable that blatant round dumping in an IDPA match SHOULD warrant a serious penalty like the FTDR. That said I don't know many shooters that haven't done it at some point or other in a match and gotten away with it. When in doubt in a big match just don't do it. Edited January 5, 2006 by Mayonaise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 Guess it is time for me to back out of this. There are two positions expressed here. Neither side will agree with the other on the dumping issue. Bottom line for me is you will never get a dumping call from me on any stage I SO. Once I learn to read minds then I will start making the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 name='Crusher' date='Jan 4 2006, 08:47 PM' post='358274'If I may be so bold as to ask, what did you do with this information..... Good question.... I had talked to the MD about a couple of other officiation things I had seen in the match earlier in the day, and it became clear that he had more basic things to deal with than what I had seen over the course of several COFs, this being the first ever sanctioned match at a tiny club. So on match day, I said nothing, but that was not the end of it in my mind. After I saw the video of the dumping, it reminded me that we need to be better prepared for this years state match. (Sure wish I could find it on my computer, but I just bought a new one, and lots of stuff is still on backup only.) So as it turns out, the club's MD, SO and shooters are discussing this very issue and several more right now on our local discussion group, so that come September, we will be better prepared. It is an SO training issue. in my mind. Every SO needs to know when to expect a reload. If one doesn't happen there then it may simply be to makeup shots or insurance shots, or it could be downloading, uploading, dumping, etc. I wish we could only invite honest shooters to our matches, but I haven't figured out a way to do that. I'm not sure what the MD could have done on match day, even if he had the time. There doesn't seem to be a way to accumulate observations from stage to stage and then apply a ruling.... but maybe there should be. Other more alert and brave SOs may have called the dumping on the spot, some clearly won't ever make the call, like they have stated here in this forum. Sort of like bank robbery, where less than about 15% of the robberies are every solved, it makes no sense to remove the law against bank robbery just because it is hard work to prevent it or catch the crooks. Ken Reed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 If I may be so bold as to ask, what did you do with this information..... Other more alert and brave SOs may have called the dumping on the spot, some clearly won't ever make the call, like they have stated here in this forum. Sort of like bank robbery, where less than about 15% of the robberies are every solved, it makes no sense to remove the law against bank robbery just because it is hard work to prevent it or catch the crooks. Ken Reed Ken With all respect.... The problem - to me - with the calling of this infraction is the possibility of making a "match ending" call against a competitor using flawed or poor information. Someone can believe something to be a fact when actually it is far from the truth, just like the 15% clearance rate of bank robberies you site above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 One way to monitor infractions is to issue a warning on the shooters score card. An example would be a called cover warning. No Precedural given, just a warning. If the shooter got another warning on a different stage for the same thing then he was given a Procedural. This was also used for shooting on the move stages. Same could be applied to round dumping. I don't like the idea of a 20 second penality. A 3 second penality would be more in line. Just thought I was through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 Thanks for trying to rattle IDPA HQ's cage on the round dumping issue. I'm not a cheater or a liar, just ignorant of the IDPA rules at that time. Now I know better.....BUT....I still think storing an empty mag is STUPID! Chills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I don't know if I'd go for a cover warning on one stage then a procedural the next time idea. I thought the whole idea of the warning was to remind you? I'm sure we have all been zoned into the shooting and forgotten where a foot might be at the time. Also, one SO might be overly picky issuing a warning and then bang, you have a procedural. It's a hard rule to enforce. It's nothing like bank robbery. Everyone knows the bank was robbed and the basic mind set of the robber. People only think the shooter dumped a round, because you don't know what he was thinking. The sun on the target, a bug, the shade, we have all had make-up shots that when scoring we found out were not needed. No one has ever mistakenly used their pistol at the bank and said "oops, I thought it was my debit card." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I always thought the benefit of the doubt went to the shooter in question? I would be hard pressed to call round dumping, unless someone puts 5 extra shots on a target....which i have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJONES5 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Guess it is time for me to back out of this. There are two positions expressed here. Neither side will agree with the other on the dumping issue. Bottom line for me is you will never get a dumping call from me on any stage I SO. Once I learn to read minds then I will start making the call. I agree,this is my 4th year as a Match Director and I am not going to try to read the shooters mind,only the shooter himself knows rather he is round dumping or not. If he doesn't have enough integrity to play the game as it should be played,than he is a sorry SOB. PAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 . "That doesn't mean it's not still cheating. I refuse to do it."" integrity" "brave SOs" "integrity to play the game'" cheater" " liar" "benefit of the doubt " "only invite honest shooters " Is an FTDR warranted when an SO overhears a shooter discussing dumping a round prior to shooting and then does it, even if it's only one round?[seen it plenty of times at state matches] "slap the competitor for various infractions"[what???were they to fast]" scared me off "honor system"[i'll get that SO at another match i run] "spirit" of the game "place blame" A Vickers count stage says you may fire as many rounds at a target as you choose. " deliberately ""personal ethics" "deliberately miss " "subjective rules" "that round dumping was so taboo ""As an old fart that cannot call his shots AND cannot see the holes left by a 9mm, I often shoot an extra shot."[ I like this guy no messin around with him i'd bet he would just shoot your procedure finger right off your hand]"picture it at a big match, where everyone watching saw a diliberate violation of the rule"[so does this mean all the squaded shooters jump in and give their opinon]........ ABOVE ARE QOUTES FROM THIS TOPIC So what is this all about???some shooters just want to shoot to win..which is what i like to do....and so does Joe.hehehe..some shooters want to keep it as a pure "integrity" only shoot,and that is fine also....but until all S.O."s are given a crystal ball to read the shooters" mind",we will just have to go with the ok for round dumping as needed to gain the advantage we need to win...I kinda like this east vs west theory on idpa shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrell Spicer Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 I shoot to win. I will take advantage of any stage design flaw I can find. I will game the stages to the best of my ability. If that means dumping a round somewhere that I will not get called for it, then I will do it. If I get called for it, I will take the penalty and live with it. I am a sorry SOB. If I ever get into a gun fight, I hope I do not get a FTDR for dumping an extra round into the other sorry SOB, but if I do, that means I lived and that my friends is what it's all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 That sounds like something a Redneck from Olive Branch, Ms. would say. All I have to say about your post is, "Amen brother"! BTW where the heck is Olive Branch? Just kidding I spent most of my youth in Cockrum, Ms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted January 7, 2006 Share Posted January 7, 2006 COCKRUM??? Isn't that illegal to type on this forum?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 8, 2006 Share Posted January 8, 2006 If I ever get into a gun fight, I hope I do not get a FTDR for dumping an extra round into the other sorry SOB, but if I do, that means I lived and that my friends is what it's all about. I've heard that attitude before, usually accompanied by the statement, "Always cheat, always win." Thing is - and I say this with all due respect - "Always cheat, always win" means "Don't give the other guy a chance in a fight to the death, take every advantage possible." It's doesn't mean "It's okay to cheat at the match." Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkelly Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 It's a poor rule and like most poor rules it's pretty much ignored. I've never called it and I never will. Respectfully, jkelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 That's simply not my experience. Not that either of our experiences is all-encompassing, but in my experience it's a rule that's almost invariably followed. People whose justification for round dumping is "Everbody does it," again in my experience, are kidding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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