dmshozer1 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 I thought there was a USPSA rule that a un bagged, chamber flag inserted PCC in a cart had to be 6 feet or so, muzzle pointed at a side berm while waiting to be called to shoot. I cannot find the rule if any that says this is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 5.2.1.7 covers the cart and unbagging. No restrictions as to where the cart can be when it is resting ETA: 5.2.1.6 deals with the un-cased carbine in a cart... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 12 hours ago, ChuckS said: 5.2.1.7 covers the cart and unbagging. No restrictions as to where the cart can be when it is resting ETA: 5.2.1.6 deals with the un-cased carbine in a cart... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 13 hours ago, ChuckS said: 5.2.1.7 covers the cart and unbagging. No restrictions as to where the cart can be when it is resting ETA: 5.2.1.6 deals with the un-cased carbine in a cart... Just read 5.2.1.7. I read it to say you have to be within 6 feet from the berm to take it out of the cart. Is a cart according to the rule the same as a wagon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said: Is a cart according to the rule the same as a wagon? There is no definition for cart in the rulebook I have found. As I understand it Cart is universal for wagon, 3gun specific type of cart, modified baby carriage, golf cart etc. I think of cart as in the term of how the firearm in conveyed. The term conveyance is used numerous times throughout 5.2 and 10.5, the rule book never defines conveyance or cart. You see wagons used at every match and as long as the wagon is up against the berm or the bagged PCC is within 2 yds of the berm there is no issue. Make sure you are familiar with 10.5.19 which states only un-bagging of the PCC is allowed. No other weapon manipulations are allowed or a DQ will be issued. This includes messing with the optic, taking sight pictures, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmshozer1 Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: There is no definition for cart in the rulebook I have found. As I understand it Cart is universal for wagon, 3gun specific type of cart, modified baby carriage, golf cart etc. I think of cart as in the term of how the firearm in conveyed. The term conveyance is used numerous times throughout 5.2 and 10.5, the rule book never defines conveyance or cart. You see wagons used at every match and as long as the wagon is up against the berm or the bagged PCC is within 2 yds of the berm there is no issue. Make sure you are familiar with 10.5.19 which states only un-bagging of the PCC is allowed. No other weapon manipulations are allowed or a DQ will be issued. This includes messing with the optic, taking sight pictures, etc. That is the way I read it, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) As originally written, the terms cart, conveyence, wagon, etc. all mean the same thing. There are just too d*** many variations to name and/or define them all. (I wrote this particular rule originally when we drafted the MG rules, so, yes, I know what we intended.) You need to pay attention to 5.2.1.6 for transporting the PCC on a cart, conveyence, whatever ... 5.2.1.7 governs taking the PCC off or putting it on the cart, conveyence, etc. Quote 5.2.1.6 If stored in a mobile rack or carrier, the PCC must be reasonably vertical whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Uncased horizontal carry/transport is prohibited. The muzzle of any such firearm, if oriented down, must point to a spot within 3 feet of the conveyance. If pointed up, it must be oriented such that a person walking around the conveyance will not be covered by the muzzle if they are more than 3 feet away from the conveyance. All such measurements shall be taken while the conveyance is situated on flat, level ground. In the event of disagreement on how the firearm is being transported, the Range Master shall be the final authority as to the acceptability of such orientation. [emphasis added] 5.2.1.7 Carbines must be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop. PCCs can also be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart under the direct supervision of a range officer with muzzle pointing at the backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a cart will result in a DQ per 10.5.19. Edited August 22, 2022 by Schutzenmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 6 feet from the berm. There was an old legend of an agreement; “ you can behead me but not my neck!” Where do you measure 6 feet? What part of the berm is the measurement index? Where does the berm end and the ground meet? Such a stupid constraint. It is like the old safe area problem. Too much variability and subjectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 OK ... If you think that stinks so badly, YOU write a better, more precisely worded rule. Do try to keep it under 500 words! And I would not recommend requiring the use of a micrometer ... Sorry, but this was the best standard we could come up with. I've never seen anyone busting someone's chops with a tape measure over this issue. If they're 15 feet away, it's kind of obvious. I've never seen anyone question 6' 1.5". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 14 hours ago, pjb45 said: Such a stupid constraint. Not really. Its pretty defined as in essentially the cart/conveyance device should be within 2 yds aka 6' of the base of the berm to uncase the PCC. Do you really need them to spell out base of the berm? Everyone understand the intent of the rule and how to safely uncase a PCC. As a competitor and an RO/CRO the rule is pretty easy to enforce. If you do not think it is you should contact NROI and tell them. Stupid constraint in what way? Are you suggesting PCC can be uncased anywhere on the range without supervision of and RO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 That might be the point. The intent is to safely place the cart in a designated area. Specificity, obscures the intent. Why six feet v. 7 feet. It adds no value but make non-compliance acceptable. What do you do if there is NO BERM? DUH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GigG Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 14 hours ago, pjb45 said: What do you do if there is NO BERM? You roll your cart to the firing line when it is your turn and take it out of the cart there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, pjb45 said: DUH! Not hard to figure out really. Not every range will be the same and the rule book has addressed this. Edited August 26, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 20 hours ago, pjb45 said: Why six feet v. 7 feet. Why not 5 feet? ... or 10 feet? or 7.2 inches? 6 feet was the chosen amount. We needed to establish SOME specified distance to write the rule ... 6 feet seemed close enough to be reasonable but not so far away as to be a problem. It's a standard. Apply it as best you can. I suppose if we had specified 7 feet you'd argue for 8, or 4. No DUH about it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 On 8/26/2022 at 2:21 PM, Schutzenmeister said: Why not 5 feet? ... or 10 feet? or 7.2 inches? 6 feet was the chosen amount. We needed to establish SOME specified distance to write the rule ... 6 feet seemed close enough to be reasonable but not so far away as to be a problem. It's a standard. Apply it as best you can. I suppose if we had specified 7 feet you'd argue for 8, or 4. No DUH about it ... They instituted a rule in practice,that is not followed by many clubs. I was saying quantifying a distance in a rule, knowing full well the constraint will not be followed nor in all practicality enforced makes for a stupid rule. Some specified distance was not needed especially if it was going to be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 1 hour ago, pjb45 said: They instituted a rule in practice,that is not followed by many clubs. I was saying quantifying a distance in a rule, knowing full well the constraint will not be followed nor in all practicality enforced makes for a stupid rule. Some specified distance was not needed especially if it was going to be ignored. So say the speed limit is 70 mph. Is that limit really not needed since many are going to ignore it as an absolute limit and probably go at least several mph faster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Try to stay on point. USPSA is not a government organization. Fundamentals of rule making are fairly clear. Some rules are valid, some rules are not reasonable and are capacious and arbitrary. Is 70 mph reasonable, probably the legislature who acting as agents of the public thought these types of laws to adhere to the reasonable man rule. Do you enjoy all the new anti-gun rules, policy, procedures, laws, etc., that are enacted by worthless governments, that do not serve to diminish the despicable events of unsound perps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 (edited) "...diminish the despicable events of unsound perps..." I like that; it's almost poetic. But what does that have to do with unbagging a rifle from a cart? Try to stay on point now... Edited August 29, 2022 by ddc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 22 hours ago, pjb45 said: I was saying quantifying a distance in a rule, knowing full well the constraint will not be followed nor in all practicality enforced makes for a stupid rule. How is 6' from the berm stupid. It obvious what the intent of the rule is. This rule is followed at every club I attend USPSA matches at. Every Nationals I have been to this rule is enforced. If the rule is not enforced by any club, how is that the fault of the organization implementing the rule? Have you voiced the fact this rule is not being followed at your club(s)? Sounds like a club issue, not a rule issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 This has drifted well beyond the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts