Kkm or barsto

[Shooter212]

Fed up with the accuracy of my legion. Shot a Major 3 gun match last week and small steel at distance was annoying. Never had trouble with my 2011. I can’t get my legion to group with coated bullets at all 115,124,147 it hates all of them. So which is the better choice kkm or a barsto. 

[LMS]

Popular opinion is neither - that it's the slide. 

[outerlimits]

Rarely the barrel-likely the fitting.

[WaltK]

Interesting. Just yesterday I took the Legion out for the first session with the new KKM barrel. 

Shooting PD 125 JHP V1, 4.1 SP @ 1.115 - 1.120 

First group (25 yards) decent nothing special. 

Second group opened right up. Third group shot 7 into one ragged hole with 3 just slightly out! 

Fourth  group complete S--T.  Blew my mind. Couldn't figure out for the life of me what the hell was going on. 

I think I may have my answer now.

[oddjob]

tag

[Shooter212]

It’s just disheartening I want to love this gun but at distance it doesn’t perform like any other gun I have ever ran. Might just sell it all and go shadow 2. 

[WaltK]

41 minutes ago, Shooter212 said:

It’s just disheartening I want to love this gun but at distance it doesn’t perform like any other gun I have ever ran. Might just sell it all and go shadow 2. 

Have the CZ Shadow2. Send it to CGW for the complete accuracy job. Gun shoots very well and consistently without any drama. 

But I do love the "soft" shooting and single pull of the Legion which has been worked over by "The Sig Armorer". But may go with the CZ for the  consistent accuracy and  reliability.

Edited June 15, 2022 by WaltK
grammar

[LMS]

2 hours ago, Shooter212 said:

It’s just disheartening I want to love this gun but at distance it doesn’t perform like any other gun I have ever ran. Might just sell it all and go shadow 2. 

That's a totally understandable and legit feeling.   If you're going to go that route, now's probably the best time to do it since you have the least $ and emotion invested in the Sig, and you might start throwing money at it like many of us are.

 

I moved from CZ Shadow target guns to the P320 Legion platform.   CZs are great guns, reliable, accurate, lots of aftermarket support.   But in the end, three things caused me to move on: the double action trigger on the first shot (yes I know there's lots of guys that mastered it, I just didn't), the difficulty in fully cleaning it (yes I know people have figured it out...), and having to manually drop the hammer on a live round at the "make ready" signal.   Each of those has it's solution, but when I added them up, the lure of the X5 Legion won out.

 

No regrets owning the CZs, and no regrets moving to this new platform.  Exploring and tweaking and puttering is fun for me, and although I've spent too much money trying to get it as accurate as I want (taking up reloading thinking I needed a special load, buying a Barsto Barrel that turned out to make very little difference, and now buying a Gray Guns slide/barrel combo).    But, I've certainly spent more money on stupider things, so I take comfort in that!

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by LMS

[Shooter212]

46 minutes ago, LMS said:

That's a totally understandable and legit feeling.   If you're going to go that route, now's probably the best time to do it since you have the least $ and emotion invested in the Sig, and you might start throwing money at it like many of us are.

 

I moved from CZ Shadow target guns to the P320 Legion platform.   CZs are great guns, reliable, accurate, lots of aftermarket support.   But in the end, three things caused me to move on: the double action trigger on the first shot (yes I know there's lots of guys that mastered it, I just didn't), the difficulty in fully cleaning it (yes I know people have figured it out...), and having to manually drop the hammer on a live round at the "make ready" signal.   Each of those has it's solution, but when I added them up, the lure of the X5 Legion was stronger.

 

No regrets owning the CZs, and no regrets moving to this new platform.  Exploring and tweaking and puttering is fun for me, and although I've spent too much money trying to get it as accurate as I want (taking up reloading thinking I needed a special load, buying a Barsto Barrel that turned out to make very little difference, and now buying a Gray Guns slide/barrel combo).    But, I've certainly spent more money on stupider things, so I take comfort in that!

 

All the reasons you mentioned are the reasons I went with the legion over the S2. Plus I shoot a 2011 a bunch and the cross over is the nicest. I wish walther made the steel frame with a 18rd grip that would be sweet. 

[HOGRIDER]

16 hours ago, Shooter212 said:

Fed up with the accuracy of my legion. Shot a Major 3 gun match last week and small steel at distance was annoying. Never had trouble with my 2011. I can’t get my legion to group with coated bullets at all 115,124,147 it hates all of them. So which is the better choice kkm or a barsto. 

I have a Bar-Sto GS fit match barrel; and then the KKM became available.  Discussed it with Robert Burke telling him I was totally dissatisfied with the fit/accuracy of the Max's stock barrel; and while the gun was in his hands, I wanted the best accuracy potential along with fit/chamber/etc.  He said let's do the KKM.  

 

Although I hope to start initial testing by this weekend, I did have a couple of in-depth phone conversations with KKM and feel I definitely made the right choice!

 

Had the KKM not been available, I would have had no problem with having Robert do the GS fit Bar-Sto. 

 

HTHs!

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, WaltK said:

Interesting. Just yesterday I took the Legion out for the first session with the new KKM barrel. 

Shooting PD 125 JHP V1, 4.1 SP @ 1.115 - 1.120 

First group (25 yards) decent nothing special. 

Second group opened right up. Third group shot 7 into one ragged hole with 3 just slightly out! 

Fourth  group complete S--T.  Blew my mind. Couldn't figure out for the life of me what the hell was going on. 

I think I may have my answer now.

@WaltK I'm curious as to which rifling you chose for your KKM barrel?  1:16 or 1:18?

 

I plan on doing my first bench rested accuracy tests this weekend; but one thing Luke stressed before doing any serious accuracy testing was to run 25-30 FMJ, plain jane (WWB) ammo through the barrel/gun before testing my own reloads.

 

Just prior to finalizing my order, I told him I wanted to use 124/125g JHPs (PD and Zero) to start with.  He recommended the 1:16 rifling and to work toward a 1050-1100fps average velocity.

 

HTHs........

 

 

[LMS]

1 minute ago, HOGRIDER said:

 

 

... but one thing Luke stressed before doing any serious accuracy testing was to run 25-30 FMJ, plain jane (WWB) ammo through the barrel/gun before testing my own reloads....

 

 

Interesting - did he say why?

 

[HOGRIDER]

Just now, LMS said:

 

Interesting - did he say why?

 

To be perfectly honest, I had so many questions! And we were discussing so many things concerning his barrel,  I was asking then writing down his answers as fast as I could!

 

He probably gave me a good reason and I just didn't get it in my notes fast enough to remember.  But I'm sure I could talk with him again and he would provide a very legit reason.

 

He was sharing a lot of what the AMU does when testing/using his barrels; and if I was guessing, I would say it was to "season" a barrel to help determine the accuracy "potential"......  but again, this is just my WAG.

 

[WaltK]

My KKM barrel is 1 in 16 twist I believe.  I did not run any Win. WB ammo through it before shooting my hand loads.    

I'm going to bump my charge to 4.2/4.3 SP and see how that performs. Of course it may be moot because of the slide fit situation.

 

[Vizorn]

I have a Legion with a Robert Burke fit Bar-Sto and an AXG Pro with a Bar-Sto drop-in from Springfield Precision (they machine it to a “generic slide”). Both shoot inside 3” at 50 yards. I plan on trying the KKM at some point, but the Bar-Sto’s are doing the job for me so far. 

[WaltK]

11 minutes ago, Vizorn said:

I have a Legion with a Robert Burke fit Bar-Sto and an AXG Pro with a Bar-Sto drop-in from Springfield Precision (they machine it to a “generic slide”). Both shoot inside 3” at 50 yards. I plan on trying the KKM at some point, but the Bar-Sto’s are doing the job for me so far. 

What is the load?

[HOGRIDER]

2 hours ago, WaltK said:

My KKM barrel is 1 in 16 twist I believe.  I did not run any Win. WB ammo through it before shooting my hand loads.    

I'm going to bump my charge to 4.2/4.3 SP and see how that performs. Of course it may be moot because of the slide fit situation.

 

Hope the bump helps performance!

 

I've asked several "professional" people that supposedly know the P320 platform, and it appears the radial play in the slide to FCU fit is not a big factor in determining accuracy.  That barrel to slide fit/lockup is what's claimed to make it work along with having a smooth transition once the trigger pull is started.

 

As an old 1911/2011 shooter/tuner, it does not help me to understand the how/why with this platform!  But Robert is doing fitment work for Max Michel's competition pistols; so I guess I'm not in a position to question his experience!

 

[Vizorn]

Hornady 125 gr HAP, VV N320, Starline brass, Fed GMM SPP, 1.090”. Chrono’d 1067 out of the 5” Bar-Sto. 

 

Also tried Blue bullets 125 TC, but they didn’t group well at all past 25 yds. I had an older batch of Bayou 125 TC (no longer made) that grouped very well at 25, but did not nearly match the HAPs at 50. 

I need all the accuracy I can get at 50 yds since I shoot NRA Action Pistol, so the HAPs are what I settled on. 

[HOGRIDER]

Just now, Vizorn said:

Hornady 125 gr HAP, VV N320, Starline brass, Fed GMM SPP, 1.090”. Chrono’d 1067 out of the 5” Bar-Sto. 

 

Also tried Blue bullets 125 TC, but they didn’t group well at all past 25 yds. I had an older batch of Bayou 125 TC (no longer made) that grouped very well at 25, but did not nearly match the HAPs at 50. 

I need all the accuracy I can get at 50 yds since I shoot NRA Action Pistol, so the HAPs are what I settled on. 

@VizornIf you do try the KKM and are looking for max 50 yd performance, the AMU uses the 1:18 KKM barrel with Hornady 115g XTPs.  ~.75" out of a test fixture at 50 yds.....

 

[HOGRIDER]

20 hours ago, outerlimits said:

Rarely the barrel-likely the fitting.

Straight from Bar-Sto:

 

[WaltK]

Gentlemen, thank you very much for the replies. A few points.  First I didn't even know the barrel came in 1:18 twist.

Second I use range brass. I'd love to use only Starline brass but you know how that goes. The same for Hornady XTPs and HAPs.

I have two uppers so I'll try the barrel in each. I will continue to plod along and see what I can do.   

[Vizorn]

2 hours ago, HOGRIDER said:

@VizornIf you do try the KKM and are looking for max 50 yd performance, the AMU uses the 1:18 KKM barrel with Hornady 115g XTPs.  ~.75" out of a test fixture at 50 yds.....

 

Thanks! 

[fireman1776]

KKM drops in, is available right now and cheaper. Mine has zero play between slide and barrel. 

[Trader]

KKM, I have both.

[warpspeed]

I've had Barsto fit several barrels for  me and never been disappointed.