Single Stack Division, Major Or Minor?

[Matt Cheely]

11 shooters out of 261 total are shooting minor this year. Or at least plan on shooting minor...

[Carmoney]

I have shot the SSC for several years now, and every stage I've seen at the match has been set up to be shot with 8+1. With the current crew designing the match, there will never be any meaningful advantage to shooting 10+1 at minor P.F. at the SSC--they will always make sure it's friendly to the traditional .45 1911.

Last year I surveyed through a whole bunch of old match booklets from various major matches around the country, and if became pretty clear to me that 8+1 major is usually the way to go in Single Stack division. However, there will always be the occasional match where the 10+1 minor option becomes entirely viable, and perhaps advantageous. It's all dependent on course design, stage round count, and how the reloads break down within the stage. From the beginning, I've predicted that we will sometimes see shooters bring both major and minor guns/gear to the match, and decide which gun to shoot after viewing the stages.

[Alan Meek]

My recommendation is for everyone to shoot minor in SSD

[ChuckS]

My recommendation is for everyone to shoot minor in SSD

[warpspeed]

If it is mostly a paper match, I'd stick with Major.

If it is mostly a steel match, the extra rounds that you get in minor could come in handy

[Matt Cheely]

Always a good excuse to buy another gun.

[Flexmoney]

I'm just curious why some minor guys placed so much higer in 2006 versus 2007 (again, if I combed through the results right in the first place).

Ahhh... It was Taran and Doug. You can't compare them to some guys that...aren't them.

[38superman]

I have shot the SSC for several years now, and every stage I've seen at the match has been set up to be shot with 8+1. With the current crew designing the match, there will never be any meaningful advantage to shooting 10+1 at minor P.F. at the SSC--they will always make sure it's friendly to the traditional .45 1911.

Last year I surveyed through a whole bunch of old match booklets from various major matches around the country, and if became pretty clear to me that 8+1 major is usually the way to go in Single Stack division. However, there will always be the occasional match where the 10+1 minor option becomes entirely viable, and perhaps advantageous. It's all dependent on course design, stage round count, and how the reloads break down within the stage. From the beginning, I've predicted that we will sometimes see shooters bring both major and minor guns/gear to the match, and decide which gun to shoot after viewing the stages.

+1

Although I have never been to the SSC, I'm sure it is set up to be 8 round friendly.

If I were going to shoot it, I would definately show up with a .45

The same is probably true for SS only matches anywhere.

I think we are in agreement that there are some matches that are nothing but hose fests.

If you shoot a match that is not sanctioned by USPSA, they may not be too concerned about 8 round arrays

There are bound to be situations where it might be to your advantage to give up a few points for more ammo.

I really may come down to a game day decision.

Now comes another interesting question.

If you are going to shoot minor, what choice of caliber?

9mm would seem to be the obvious choice for any number of reasons.

Does anyone expect to shoot .38 super? If so, why?

Tls

Edited February 14, 2008 by 38superman

[bp78]

+1 for Major.

I tried a couple local matches shooting an STI Trojan in 9mm / minor. There were too many tight shots where I'd happily just take 2 C's to stay out of hard cover or a non-threat. The scoring afterwards hurt. Although the 10 round Chip McCormick 38Super mags do run well, I couldn't really find a competitive advantage to the extra 2 rounds on most stages.

I now stick to shooting .45 in SS, major scoring made a big difference for me. But I'm still fairly new to USPSA, best of luck to anyone finding that competitive advantage.

[boo radley]

That's a good point about giving up 2 C's for the fat part of the target, Barry....

It's interesting to compare Production shooter's hit factors to those in SS. In theory, a single-stack minor shooter with working 10-round mags would be shooting the equivalent of Production hit-factors, no?

The problem is, if you look at last year's matches, there's usually 1 'top' SS shooter, then a handful of B/C/D shooters, so it's tough to gauge. There aren't enough SS shooters in matches that aren't SS-only.

At Area8, in most stages, it looks like the top SS shooter (GM Scott W.) had worse hit factors than a passle of the top Production shooters. What does that mean?

I like the thought of 9mm in SS. Walk away from the brass, reasonable bullet prices w/out dicking with cast lead, low recoil, for those of us with tendinitis in the elbows...But I sure hate the math.

[Rocket35]

Major- enough said...

[boo radley]

Major- enough said...

Fair enough, but: 2007 South Carolina Sectional. Averaged the top two hit factors for each stage:

4.35 9.54 6.83 7.05 6.46 7.66 7.19 4.415 PRODUCTION

3.585 9.34 6.25 6.7 6.195 7.3 6.78 4.455 SINGLE STACK

In production, there were no GM shooters. In SingleStack, there was a GM (Seeklander) and a M shooter. Why isn't the advantage of major scoring destroying the Production shooters?

[Matt Cheely]

Probably because up until last year those stages likely had 9 rounds arrays forcing the SS guys to go empty or use a different plan than the production shooters.

[Flexmoney]

And, you really can't read much into a small sample. (though I like the idea)

You lose the 8 vs 10 aspect, but if you want to compare Major to Minor...pick a Nationals where they had Production and L-10. Should be a good amount of top shooters in each.

[Alan Meek]

And, you really can't read much into a small sample. (though I like the idea)

You lose the 8 vs 10 aspect, but if you want to compare Major to Minor...pick a Nationals where they had Production and L-10. Should be a good amount of top shooters in each.

Also don't caught up on the classes prior to 2008. The classes were based on your highest class other than open unless open was your only classification.

[boo radley]

And, you really can't read much into a small sample. (though I like the idea)

You lose the 8 vs 10 aspect, but if you want to compare Major to Minor...pick a Nationals where they had Production and L-10. Should be a good amount of top shooters in each.

Also don't caught up on the classes prior to 2008. The classes were based on your highest class other than open unless open was your only classification.

Those are all great points, Matt, Flex and Alan, (although in the last case, the GM and M might likely be on top of Production, had they shot that instead. Maybe).

It's really murky. The core problem is sample size. At the Florida Open, if I throw out the worst and best stage, and average the highest HFs for all the stages:

SS: 6.6

Prod: 6.8

Limited: 7.9

L10: 5.6

But this is skewed by the Sevigny Effect. The *2nd* highest HF in Production averages to 5.9, whereas with Limited it goes from 7.9 to 7.6. There's no point in looking at the 2nd best SS shooter at this match, 'cause you go from Angus to a C-class shooter at under 50% (no disrespect intended!).

There just aren't enough SS shooters at a match, to get solid data on major 8 vs. minor 10, and in any case, I'll bet it's not a giant difference unlike Production vs Ltd/Open. IM(very)HO anyway.

[bigsaxdog]

And, you really can't read much into a small sample. (though I like the idea)

You lose the 8 vs 10 aspect, but if you want to compare Major to Minor...pick a Nationals where they had Production and L-10. Should be a good amount of top shooters in each.

one of the problems w/ this postulation(can i say that?), is comparing 10 rd single stack w/ L-10 and production. i've been shooting a long slide SS in L-10 for a while, and if you think that reloading a wide body is the same as a SS, then your name must be Rob Leatham. this is one of the main reasons that the new SS division is the best thing USPSA has done, in my book!

[cliffwalsh]

one of the problems w/ this postulation(can i say that?),

Postulation is not a problem, all men over 50 should get postulated once a year.

[bigsaxdog]

i wonder if GM's get postulated more than others???? or at least more often???

[zhunter]

Always a good excuse to buy another gun.

My thoughts EXACTLY

I'm just curious why some minor guys placed so much higer in 2006 versus 2007 (again, if I combed through the results right in the first place).

Ahhh... It was Taran and Doug. You can't compare them to some guys that...aren't them.

VERY true Flex

Major- enough said...

Fair enough, but: 2007 South Carolina Sectional. Averaged the top two hit factors for each stage:

4.35 9.54 6.83 7.05 6.46 7.66 7.19 4.415 PRODUCTION

3.585 9.34 6.25 6.7 6.195 7.3 6.78 4.455 SINGLE STACK

In production, there were no GM shooters. In SingleStack, there was a GM (Seeklander) and a M shooter. Why isn't the advantage of major scoring destroying the Production shooters?

More reloads are the answer to this limited sampling

[boo radley]

More reloads are the answer to this limited sampling

So then you think 10-round minor is an advantage in Single Stack?

[38superman]

It can be.

Consider a plate rack with 6 steel and a paper target.

That's an 8 shot array.

Miss one plate and you're going to slide lock.

Miss two and welcome the the static reload club.

Wouldn't you rather face that with a couple of extra rounds?

There's no minor scoring on steel.

It either goes down or it doesn't

Tls

Edited February 16, 2008 by 38superman

[Rocket35]

It can be.

Consider a plate rack with 6 steel and a paper target.

That's an 8 shot array.

Miss one plate and you're going to slide lock.

Miss two and welcome the the static reload club.

Wouldn't you rather face that with a couple of extra rounds?

There's no minor scoring on steel.

It either goes down or it doesn't

Tls

Well I have encountered a platerack in a match.....let's see......never. So it is a pretty remote reason to consider that as a deciding factor.

[Alan Meek]

It can be.

Consider a plate rack with 6 steel and a paper target.

That's an 8 shot array.

Miss one plate and you're going to slide lock.

Miss two and welcome the the static reload club.

Wouldn't you rather face that with a couple of extra rounds?

There's no minor scoring on steel.

It either goes down or it doesn't

Tls

Well I have encountered a platerack in a match.....let's see......never. So it is a pretty remote reason to consider that as a deciding factor.

Come shoot with North Mountain in VA they have a plate rack that is used at pretty much every match.

[zhunter]

It can be.

Consider a plate rack with 6 steel and a paper target.

That's an 8 shot array.

Miss one plate and you're going to slide lock.

Miss two and welcome the the static reload club.

Wouldn't you rather face that with a couple of extra rounds?

There's no minor scoring on steel.

It either goes down or it doesn't

Tls

Well I have encountered a platerack in a match.....let's see......never. So it is a pretty remote reason to consider that as a deciding factor.

I have shot plateracks at two different match locations several times.

It happens, and there is normally paper involved too!