Clear as Mud - Explaining Handgun RDS

[MuffintopMarksman]

How do you describe using a red dot on a handgun to someone? 
 

I’ve slowly ironed out something along the lines of “You look at the target rather than a front sight and the dot slips in between. Rather than guiding irons to a place you want to hit, you focus on the spot and send a shot when the dot aligned with it.”
 

I’ve also communicated the potential increase in speed by explaining that shooting irons requires the alignment of four things (eye, sights, target) and a RDS only requires two (the eye and the target) as you don’t actually have to align the dot against another reference on the gun to get it to do what you want.

 

This seems to make sense to most people I’ve relayed it to, but I’m curious if anyone has found a better explanation. 

[Flea]

Not better, but said slightly differently. You look at the exact spot you want the bullet to land then bring the dot to that point then pull the trigger. Your focus should always be on the spot you want your bullet to hit, not on the dot. Using a dot, when done correctly, allows you to have one focal point, the spot where you want the bullet to hit. Using irons has up to 3 focal points, target/front sight/rear sight.

[CClassForLife]

The best way I heard it explained.

 

Go ahead and point your finger at the target. Are you looking at your finger? Nearly universally, the person is completely target focused and intuitively knows where their pointer finger is in physical space. With enough practice, the red dot is like the finger.

[ShredderTactical]

I think Flea nailed it in his comment above. Most of the worlds top level action pistol shooters use a similar explanation.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

How do you describe using a red dot on a handgun to someone? 
 

I’ve slowly ironed out something along the lines of “You look at the target rather than a front sight and the dot slips in between. Rather than guiding irons to a place you want to hit, you focus on the spot and send a shot when the dot aligned with it.”
 

I’ve also communicated the potential increase in speed by explaining that shooting irons requires the alignment of four things (eye, sights, target) and a RDS only requires two (the eye and the target) as you don’t actually have to align the dot against another reference on the gun to get it to do what you want.

 

This seems to make sense to most people I’ve relayed it to, but I’m curious if anyone has found a better explanation. 

 

I tell them to not look through the optic but to look past it.

 

When they tell me that can't be done (and someone has) I just put a paster over the front of the lens and smash alphas in front of them.

 

Then turn around and ask how can I shoot like that if I can't see the target through the optic?

[MuffintopMarksman]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I tell them to not look through the optic but to look past it.

 

When they tell me that can't be done (and someone has) I just put a paster over the front of the lens and smash alphas in front of them.

 

Then turn around and ask how can I shoot like that if I can't see the target through the optic?

Certainly an effective demonstration from the sounds of it. Only thing I’ll have to work out is how to get away with that on the sales floor

[X5SigChris]

22 minutes ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

Certainly an effective demonstration from the sounds of it. Only thing I’ll have to work out is how to get away with that on the sales floor

I don’t have any sales experience, but are they mounted onto a firearm? If so, you could just show them. I thought it was a nice training tool once I tried it and it did help me with my tartlet focused sighting. Target and dot is clear as day even with it covered if done correctly. 

[MuffintopMarksman]

18 hours ago, X5SigChris said:

I don’t have any sales experience, but are they mounted onto a firearm? If so, you could just show them. I thought it was a nice training tool once I tried it and it did help me with my tartlet focused sighting. Target and dot is clear as day even with it covered if done correctly. 

Showing is certainly the logical first step, but many, if not most, of our customers will then ask something along the lines of “What’s the point?”. Some explanation of the potential speed and accuracy advantage, as well as the need for consistent presentation of the gun, are usually required to get the point across.

[MuffintopMarksman]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:28 AM, CClassForLife said:

The best way I heard it explained.

 

Go ahead and point your finger at the target. Are you looking at your finger? Nearly universally, the person is completely target focused and intuitively knows where their pointer finger is in physical space. With enough practice, the red dot is like the finger.

Love the simplicity of this. Thanks for sharing that!

[Chompion]

Acceptable sight picture at different distances as well. For most practical shooting purposes, dont need the dot to be still but the dot can tell you a lot in respect to grip

[MuffintopMarksman]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:54 PM, Chompion said:

Acceptable sight picture at different distances as well. For most practical shooting purposes, dont need the dot to be still but the dot can tell you a lot in respect to grip

It does appear to be an easier indicator of a problem in grip since it’s more apparently shaking when something is off (or not visible at all). It certainly doesn’t replace the need for fundamentals to be solid. Unfortunately, too many people think about dots and lasers in this way.

[Chompion]

4 hours ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

It does appear to be an easier indicator of a problem in grip since it’s more apparently shaking when something is off (or not visible at all). It certainly doesn’t replace the need for fundamentals to be solid. Unfortunately, too many people think about dots and lasers in this way.

Absolutely. Fundamentals over gear 

[floater]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:43 AM, MuffintopMarksman said:

It does appear to be an easier indicator of a problem in grip since it’s more apparently shaking when something is off (or not visible at all). It certainly doesn’t replace the need for fundamentals to be solid. Unfortunately, too many people think about dots and lasers in this way.

You are right on this. But this also show the misuse of the dot. If all you see is how much the dot shakes you're doing it wrong, that shows you are still looking at the dot and using it as an iron sight. I find myself still doing this, but when I can just forget and focus on the target things work out better.

[floater]

On 3/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, CClassForLife said:

The best way I heard it explained.

 

Go ahead and point your finger at the target. Are you looking at your finger? Nearly universally, the person is completely target focused and intuitively knows where their pointer finger is in physical space. With enough practice, the red dot is like the finger.

Like this.

[Bakerjd]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:28 AM, CClassForLife said:

The best way I heard it explained.

 

Go ahead and point your finger at the target. Are you looking at your finger? Nearly universally, the person is completely target focused and intuitively knows where their pointer finger is in physical space. With enough practice, the red dot is like the finger.

Why did I never think of it in these extremely simple terms. Thank you!

[konkapot]

If you have a inert/demo gun on the salesfloor it will help to remove the irons. 

 

What I'm seeing in my little slice of the LE world is that they think or they've been told to "put that dot on the top of the front sight." Infuriating. 

 

A metaphor I'm using is that the dot is a paintbrush, where has the front sight is a knife. Paint the target with your dot. 

 

Very very hard getting "front sight focus" people to change. 

[gargoil66]

5 hours ago, konkapot said:

If you have a inert/demo gun on the salesfloor it will help to remove the irons. 

 

What I'm seeing in my little slice of the LE world is that they think or they've been told to "put that dot on the top of the front sight." Infuriating. 

 

A metaphor I'm using is that the dot is a paintbrush, where has the front sight is a knife. Paint the target with your dot. 

 

Very very hard getting "front sight focus" people to change. 

KP:

 

That was common when the Aimpoints were being used on flat top carbines or rifles in the mil.  I think that some got confused when they were taught to get a rough zero with the dot sights by obtaining sight alignment with the irons on the carbines and having someone adjust the dot so it was on top of the front sight (lollypop).  Some took that to mean the dot had to be on top of the front sight when in use.  More than most shooters would think.

 

A lot of LEA come from the mil so maybe a hold over or maybe the LEA who aren't used to firearms are being taught the same technique to get a dot sight zeroed on their pistols providing the dot sight sits low enough and the rear sight remains on the pistol.  Could be they take that to mean they have to put the dot on top of the front sight when in use, just like some did in the mil when the dot sights were being issued with the flat top carbines or A-4's.

 

Another thing I found is that some folks thought the dot had to be in the middle of the screen so be advised.  And almost all who transition to the dot spend too much time trying to refine a sight picture which only makes things uglier.  Almost all can not comprehend that the dot is designed for CQB where speed and good enough precision is the end state so that is another issue.

 

One thing I forgot.  Dot brightness can also be a source of problems.  People new to dot sights usually have them really bright and obscures the aiming point on the target enough for slow and poor performance.    Pretty common and something to be aware of.

 

Nothing I have ever said to guys having problems with the dot sights brought instant success.  Action was the solution. Taping up or better yet, removing the front and rear sights gets their eyes on the target and dot instead of the iron sights.  Combine that with something akin to Bill Drills and simple transitions under time constraints works well providing the drills are a challenge and not a exercise in failure.  Can always cut down the time as you see performance improve.

 

Not sure if guys look in the middle of the target first and lets the dot go there or tracks the dot to the middle.  Probably a combination of both.  Would take eyetrackers and a few controlled tests with the really high end competitors to find out if they are gazing in the middle of the target or are picking up the dot and tracking it into the middle.  

 

What I can pretty much guarantee is that the best shooters have a very calm and steady gaze just before the shot is fired.  "Quiet Eye" and is an attribute that has been studied and validated.  

 

Just my experiences.   

 

GG

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by gargoil66