Safety Discussion

[Flexmoney]

[edit] This topic is meant to be a learning discussion in safety. Please refrain from any harsh comments toward anybody invloved. Keep in mind that this situation is not IDPA specific.

Another thread on another forum posted some links to some vidoe clips from a state level IDPA match (I believe).

This could have been any match format, but it happened to be an IDPA match, so I thought it would be good to talk about the safety aspects here.

There seems to be a pretty good muzzle issue from about the point of 8 seconds to 11 seconds one the video. I think there is a finger in the trigger issue as well?

A lot can likely be learned from this video clip. Things to consider:

- lateral movement

- sucking in close to "cover"

- SO position

- stage design

- making safety calls (DQ's)

Here is a link to the video: http://www.firstcoastidpa.com/images/nov05_flga/mov00346.mpg

And, here is a "capture" from the video:

[AZ38super]

Wow, there is a lot to be said about that one...

The biggest thing is it should have been a solid DQ and not a verbal warning.

Poor stage design but still could be run without breaking the 180.

My guess is a new shooter very unfamiliar with rules and competition shooting.

You hate to send him home but he needs to learn it now before something bad happens.

[Precision40]

That was ugly and should have been an instant DQ. The S.O. didn't make the call, so the shooter kept on shooting.

3 months ago at our last IDPA classifier, we were shooting stage 2, where you had to turn, draw and engage T1-T3. Well the shooter DREW, turned and swept every single shooter right across the gut with his .45, no DQ was issued.

Same shooter 2 months ago. The stage required the shooter to back up about 20 feet, the shooter turned 180, pointed his gun straight up to the sky and proceeded to run uprange. No DQ was issued.

Last match, same shooter. I was the SO, he came "close" to the 180, but didn't pass it, so I politely issued a stern warning and told him to keep the muzzle pointed downrange. VERY next stage required the shooter to finish up from the kneeling position, I instructed him to ULSC. For some reason he put the pistol on the ground, but when he went to pick it back up, he grabbed it by the slide and pointed the muzzle square to my chest (Keep in mind that this pistol was still loaded) Needless to say I told him his day was done, he was DQ'd from the match. I then proceeded to not-so-politely tell him to keep the muzzle pointed downrange at ALL times.

The really sad part of this is that after I DQ'd him, the MD asked him on the next stage if he was going to keep shooting to which he replied "I don't think I'm going to finish shooting the match, I need more practice"

Morale of the story. If you get swept by a gun, regardless whether or not you are the SO or RO, DEMAND a DQ.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Precision40

[Greg Jones]

This should be a very interesting and (for me) timely discussion on safety issues in the sport. Flex, just in the past week Michael (local IDPA Match Director) and I have been having conversations on the SO training class(es) that we are going to conduct this winter. We agree that we need to do a better job addressing the safety issues in the sport than what we have had in the past. We are also revisiting what we cover in our new-to-IDPA shooter briefing that we hold before each match as we are still seeing way too many muzzle and trigger infractions and we have DQ'd more shooters in the past 2-3 months than we did in the previous 6-8 months. I'd be interested to hear what other clubs are doing to train SOs and address match safety before a shooter commits an unsafe act. Suggestions on additional resources beyond those provided by HQ would be especially helpful. Also, what are the thoughts on having SOs and/or the match director take the NRA Range Officer training certification? For anyone that has taken the course, would it be beneficial or not?

[Crusher]

How could the RO MISS that one? Look at his expression (none) clearly he is oblivious to the gun handling of the shooter. Isn't that what ROs are to be watching for?

I guess he just "holds the timer" for the shooter so the shooter (while shooting) does not inadvertantly bump the timer and record an incorrect time?

Now on a more serious side RO's are there to witness/enforce saftey violations (among other duties) and warn or DQ accordingly. As far as I am concerned RO's PRIMARY job is SAFETY, secondary are scoring and ensuring consistant stage proceedures from competitors while shooting.

EDIT: Just watched the vid AGAIN and I payed close attention to the RO he WAS WATCHING TARGETS NOT THE SHOOTER OR HIS GUN .............WOW!

Edited November 22, 2005 by Crusher

[standles]

I agree that this should have been a DQ. I looked back over the video several times and it seems the RO was looking more downrange at tgts coming up than at the shooter. I could be mistaken but if he was looking at the shooter I think that muzzle would have been hard to miss. This same match had a competitor DQ'd for drawing his gun out of the box with his finger in the trigger. It discharged before clearing the box.

NEVER PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE LINED UP ON YOUR TARGET.

FWIW at our club the RO is solely responsible for safety while the shooter is engaging targets. This means that his sole attention is on the gun and what it is doing. He souldn't be looking at targets, whether poppers fell, sequences, cover, etc. etc. The score keeper picks up the slack of looking for cover violations, sequence, etc. etc. Both can call any issue but the primary responsibilities are laid out like above.

There is a tendency for us to try and be nice and not be range nazis. Nobody I have met wants to send someone home. This is especially true at major matches where people have traveled and have considerable expense involved. However, if we want to continue to have a safe enjoyable sport (Action Shooting) then we have to police ourselves more stringently. Ultimately the local clubs are the training ground for shooters and RO/SOs. If they aren't properly trained at this level then we will see increasing numbers of incidents at major matches.

If IDPA continues to grow then I thnk they are going to have to create some level of RO/SO training beyond wht is currently in place. In my shooting I have seen way to many inconsistencies in this area.

Steven

[Fireant]

I think I was standing right behind the person videoing that stage. Several of us hit the ground at that point. Being mainly USPSA shooters at our first or second major IDPA match we were not sure of the IDPA way to handle this. By the way the person that shot the IDPA box did not get DQ'd. They said the round went down range and into the berm. I had always thought an AD and or shooting props like that was a DQ.

[Crusher]

I was standing right behind the person videoing that stage. Several of us hit the ground at that point.

This is often a GOOD indicator of someone doing something with a firearm that is inherently unsafe.

By the way the person that shot the IDPA box did not get DQ'd

Unsafe gun handling should ALLWAYS be a DQ regardless of the match level.

Hypothetical:

So what are the rules in IDPA for shooters who observe a un-safe and DQ-able action from another shooter while the RO(s) miss or ignore a DQ-able action on the shooters part?

[standles]

By the way the person that shot the IDPA box did not get DQ'd. They said the round went down range and into the berm. I had always thought an AD and or shooting props like that was a DQ.

My mistake. I was told by one of the match officials that the incident had happened (didn't witness it myself). I saw a DQ on the official scores and assumed it was that person.

Later, Steven

[the duck of death]

I ususally take the new shooters. I give them and seperate and through briefing. When SOing them they each get a stage briefing with special attention to the 180 and I constantly talk to them. My timer is worn an a strap around the neck so both hands are free. And I watch THEM like a hawk. So far so good.

That vid is some scary stuff.

[Ron Ankeny]

I saw the post on the other forum, but I didn't comment because I didn't want to start an IDPA vs. IPSC thing. First off, I am way out of the loop on IDPA because it died around here and I am not current on the new rules. If I recall correctly, in the past, the SO had the option of yelling "muzzle" and allowing the competitor to correct his mistake. In IPSC, the RO yells "stop" and a DQ is issued. If that's still true, then what we see in the captured image is sport specific from a rules perspective. From a safety perspective, I think IDPA should do some real soul searching as far as not automatically issuing a DQ for unsafe gunhandling along the lines of IPSC. That's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

[boo radley]

I saw the post on the other forum, but I didn't comment because I didn't want to start an IDPA vs. IPSC thing. First off, I am way out of the loop on IDPA because it died around here and I am not current on the new rules. If I recall correctly, in the past, the SO had the option of yelling "muzzle" and allowing the competitor to correct his mistake. In IPSC, the RO yells "stop" and a DQ is issued. If that's still true, then what we see in the captured image is sport specific from a rules perspective. From a safety perspective, I think IDPA should do some real soul searching as far as not automatically issuing a DQ for unsafe gunhandling along the lines of IPSC. That's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

I agree with you, Ron. Someone in the video *did* yell "muzzle" at one point, and I don't think that IDPA has a 180 rule?

I don't shoot sanctioned IDPA matches, since I'm not a member, but often shoot local IDPA stuff. The problem is you've got people conditioned to hugging cover, with the usual "slice-the-pie", then you also mandate a *reload* behind cover. The shooter in the video is a perfect example of this: he ran so close to the cover he instinctively kept his gun parallel to it, and of course, during the reload, the slightest twist, and bingo. 180.

So they should have yelling "muzzle" the moment he started moving, so that his pistol was always pointed *at* cover, instead of 90 degrees to it.

As an aside, I've been watching some video from the World Shoot, and my ear was used to hearing a certain pace..... <grin>

[p99shooter]

During a course of fire, the SO can yell "MUZZLE" to let the shooter know they are pointing their muzzle in an unsafe direction. In addition to the 180, unsafe muzzle direction can include pointing a loaded weapon over the berm or straight up. New shooters often make the mistake of crowding cover, which leads to muzzle calls when they go duck hunting while transitioning from one side of cover to another.

IDPA doesn't have a 180 rule, but each stage is supposed to have designated "muzzle safe" points. The safe points, if not obvious, are supposed to be specified in a course of fire by using cones or flag markers. If they are not marked, the SO or MD should specify that the safe points are where the 180 line hits the side walls of the bay.

It's already been said, but where the heck is the SO looking, and why is he so far away from the shooter?

Edited November 22, 2005 by p99shooter

[p99shooter]

Here are the applicable sections from the IDPA rulebook:

PP 4. Disqualification (DQ):

A. Results from unsafe gun handling. Put away the gun.

(See Rules- Safety Rules-S 1.) Repeated offenses reported

to the AC or HQ can result in having membership revoked.

S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate

disqualification from the entire match.

Examples (but not limited to):

A. Endangering any person, including yourself.

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated “Muzzle Safe Points”.

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

The rules emphasize that there is no 180 rule, but EVERY stage has designated muzzle safe points. If the shooter in the video pointed his muzzle beyond those safe points (which, for this stage, may have been the same as a 180), he should get a DQ. Pretty clear.

In addition, the shooter violated S1A; I know that I would have felt endangered had that muzzle covered me

[rtr]

It's already been said, but where the heck is the SO looking, and why is he so far away from the shooter?

I can't say I blame him much for being far away from that shooter

[AZ38super]

The only IDPA I have shot was at an indoor range so we had to watch for pointing at walls and ceiling also but we were told the gun had to point down range.

Now rules and such could vary by range but the fact is it took the RO way to long to yell muzzle and the gun was pointed up range. I don't know of any range that would allow that to happen. Not only that he continued to run along the cover in an unsafe manner by most shooters view.

All he had to do was keep the gun pointed towards the cover, and realistically that should have been pointed out from the start. No matter what you are shooting.

Edited November 22, 2005 by AZ38super

[Fireant]

The DQ on the score was a guy in my squad that dropped his gun on the draw on the stage that you had to pick up the baby doll and shoot strong hand for a couple of targets. The box AD was the day before and I had the pleasure of seeing that one too. Looking back it seems bad things followed me the entire match. I sure hope my luck changes for the better.

[tarpleyg]

Well that happens to be me. Yes, I did have a muzzle issue which is typical during a mag change.

There seems to be a pretty good muzzle issue from about the point of 8 seconds to 11 seconds one the video. I think there is a finger in the trigger issue as well?

I can assure you my finger was not on the trigger. It was along the side of the frame where it always is when I am not on target. My short index finger cannot reach the trigger when I manipulate the gun to hit the mag release. I have been shooting 1911s since 1997 and IDPA for going on 3 years now so, no, I am not a new shooter as someone speculated before. I am also a safety officer. The course design was fine in this case. I was just changing mags as I was taught and doing so puts the gun at a 45* angle to me. My fault. Watching other shooters run this stage, they all did their reloads while stationary, pointing downrange. Anyway, no bashing me okay. Just learn from my mistake. And no, I wouldn't have DQ'd another shooter if I were running it as muzzle safe points were not clearly defined. I was still pointed into a berm on my left at the time, albeit just barely.

Greg

[AZ38super]

Greg,

First of all I would like to say we were not bashing you. Many of those making comments were not there and can only base things as we see them in the video.

I myself was thinking of the typical shooting bay where the end is open in a typical U shape in which case the gun would be pointed out of the bay.

The whole intent was to be a learning tool for all those who viewed it.

As I stated before and most people view it the same way, any time a firearm is no longer pointed down range it is an unsafe and in my mind is an immediate DQ no matter what shooting sport you are participating in.

Welcome aboard and don't let this post keep you from being an active member on BE, we are all here for the Shooting Sports.

[Mayonaise]

Muzzle safe points should be clearly defined. That said I saw this video shortly after it was posted. I noticed the muzzle issue right away and watched it a few times to be sure. Had there been muzzle safe points placed you probably would have been more aware of what you were doing.

Bottom line is you were crowding cover so much that you gave yourself no room to manipulate the gun during the reload.

Take it as a learning experience. Hopefully the MD learned about the importance of muzzle safe points as well.

[standles]

Greg

+1 for No bashing intended. Rather it was somewhat a disection of the event to learn from it. Kudos for announcing it was you. Hope you stay with us and continue to be active on the board.

That being said, I have had a couple of lapses myself during 20+ years of shooting. Nothing on video thank goodness. They should not have happened but I learned from my misstep and moved on. Anybody who has been shooting a while most likely has incidents which made them stop and say .....

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Steven

[Headshot45]

to make a couple of points about this particular stage....

1.) Nobody hit the deck.....

2.) as it has been stated, there is NO 180 in IDPA, however local ranges can adapt local rules....my home club, TSSA in south Florida, has 180 rules, and this shooter is a member of our club and a fine SO...however he has admitted to making a mistake that he will most certainly correct

3.) before any bashing of sports occurs, the gentleman running the timer was not an IDPA SO if I remember correctly, he was an IPSC RO( and I thank him and several other non-IDPA RO's for helping as the MD was short a few certified RO's), which I know trains to watch the gun as I was a CRO going for my RM many years ago....just no longer involved in IPSC at the current time. Yes, he should watch the gun...this was the SO's fault, not the shooters, as the muzzle safe points were WAY beyond 180. The shooter must be responsible for his actions, but a good SO will HELP a shooter and possibly prevent a mistake

4.) the COF was fine...no problems with it at all....anybody who thought it was a poor COF because of this incident probably wouldn't last long as an SO, because that is where you see things that would scare the best of us...LOL

5.) we all need to learn from this....it can happen to all of us....this shooter learned....and yes, he knows all about crowding cover, but in this COF a lot of shooters found themselves in just that situation, and it will continue to happen....please keep teaching and mentoring new shooters...it helps us all

I think I am done making some observations, and I hope to see all of you at some point on a range having fun making holes in perfectly good cardboard.

Frank

CSO/SOI

[Ted Murphy]

Most big matches will clearly mark muzzle safe points. I know at our last match we did, using re bar with orange ribbon.

Helps to have multiple SO's; one to watch the gun and the others to sweat the small stuff like target engagement, etc. Plus till the man upstairs decides to officiate a match mistakes will be made, so more SO's means more checks and balances safetywise.

Can't always get that much help, but it sure is nice when you do.

Ted

[tarpleyg]

I think I developed a false sense of security on this stage 1) because it was stage #1 for me and 2) because the brick wall that acts as a berm on the left side of this bay extends a good 20 plus feet back from that concrete path I am standing on. Thanks for the support and suggestions and here's to learning from your screw ups and not letting them happen again.

Greg

Edited November 23, 2005 by tarpleyg