Right pistol and training for new guy questions.

[chrisrdba]

Greetings. I'm wanting to get into USPSA and am definitely going to heed the advice I see all over the place of "shoot what you already own when you're new". My plan is to start in Production. My pistol options are:

 

1) CZ SP01 Tactical w Cajun Gun Works Pro Package. 

2) Gen 4 Glock 22 that's been converted to 9mm (effectively a G 17). 

3) Gen 5 Glock 19.

 

In the last few years I haven't done a lot of shooting. My main goal is to improve pistol handling skills for self defense, with the competition aspect coming after that. 

 

The CZ or G17 would be obvious choices. What the G19 has going for it is the ambi slide release, and the fact that I'm a lefty. I've had enough training to do fast mag changes even when I need to slingshot the slide -- likely not as fast as many competitors. Certainly not as fast as simply using my thumb. While practical pistol usage is really my main goal, I'll just assume the whole thing is a lot more fun when you dont come in dead last constantly.  All said, any advice on which of these 3 I should use based on my circumstances?

 

Also, I have one of those boresight laser gizmos that go in the chamber to help w dry firing like this one. So the laser isn't on constantly, just when the striker or hammer hits it to show where you'd actually hit. My thought is using it in my CZ in double action enables me to not need to reset after each shot, work on transitions, etc. However, the trigger is obviously much different than the same gun in SA or the Glocks. Is this the wrong approach to that training?

 

Thanks!

Edited November 17, 2021 by chrisrdba
wrong description/ more clarification

[twodownzero]

There is no reason you should ever be using the slide stop in USPSA.  If that happens, you have made a mistake serious enough that the stage you're shooting is a lost cause anyway.  Using a gun with a shorter sight radius for this perceived benefit makes even less sense.

 

Between the other two, you should pick whichever one you like shooting more.

 

There are numerous dry fire books out there.  I have books from Stoeger and Anderson.  Most of them will tell you that you don't have to actually pull the trigger every time.  I've found practicing dry fire DA only that it's better if I don't, because most of my shots in matches are single action.  I also would not use a laser to train with as you describe, because your eyes should be focused on the sights, so projecting a light on the target would train my eyes to be focusing on the wrong thing.  There is no fancy equipment needed for dry fire--a holster, your pistol, mags, and maybe some dummy rounds if you need the weight are really all that are needed.

[chrisrdba]

 

13 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

There is no reason you should ever be using the slide stop in USPSA.  If that happens, you have made a mistake serious enough that the stage you're shooting is a lost cause anyway.  Using a gun with a shorter sight radius for this perceived benefit makes even less sense.

 

Between the other two, you should pick whichever one you like shooting more.

 

There are numerous dry fire books out there.  I have books from Stoeger and Anderson.  Most of them will tell you that you don't have to actually pull the trigger every time.  I've found practicing dry fire DA only that it's better if I don't, because most of my shots in matches are single action.  I also would not use a laser to train with as you describe, because your eyes should be focused on the sights, so projecting a light on the target would train my eyes to be focusing on the wrong thing.  There is no fancy equipment needed for dry fire--a holster, your pistol, mags, and maybe some dummy rounds if you need the weight are really all that are needed.

 

Thanks, but now I'm a bit lost so please bear with me. 

 

Regarding using the slide stop -- as mentioned I want to shoot in Production, which will undoubtedly lead to reloads. Are you suggesting the slingshot method as opposed to using the slide stop/ release? Something else?

 

Regarding the laser, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here. I don't mean a laser that gets mounted to a rail like this, I mean a boresight that gets loaded into the chamber to show me where my dry fire hits are landing like this. Would you recommend against using # 2 for dry fire training?

 

Definitely not trying to argue and appreciate your insights, but want to make sure I'm on the same page.

 

Thanks!

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, chrisrdba said:

Also, I have one of those gizmos that shoots a laser out the barrel when the trigger is pressed to help w dry firing.

 

Not a fan of using lasers in dry fire in most instances.  It can have its benefits when used in the proper drills (these drills are few and far between in my opinion), but I find that using an laser leads you to looking for holes.  Meaning you are looking at the laser hitting the target instead of doing something called shot calling.  Shot calling is where you understand exactly where the sight is located on the target when the gun goes off in live fire training, or where the sight is on the target once the trigger pull is complete in dry fire training.  I found that the laser would take too much attention from shot calling retarding the learning of this very important skill in competitive shooting.  I definitely would not base my gun purchase on if I can use a laser as a training aid or not, and I think others would feel the same.      

 

1 hour ago, chrisrdba said:

1) CZ SP01 Tactical w Cajun Gun Works Pro Package. 

2) Gen 4 Glock 22 that's been converted to 9mm (effectively a G 17). 

3) Gen 5 Glock 19.

 

In regards to which gun.  Fire them all and use the one that agrees with you most.   Not a fan of the Glock grip angle and never shot them well myself.  If you have other platforms with a standard 1911 grip angle you need to take that into consideration.  I have many friends where they old Glock grip affects their current abilities in shooting fast when using their different platform that has a normal or close to normal 1911 grip angle.  Their muscle memory reverts to the Glock grip throwing shots off.  

Edited November 17, 2021 by Boomstick303

[IHAVEGAS]

45 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

There is no reason you should ever be using the slide stop in USPSA. 

 

Apparently you don't have evil stage designers who like to make 11 shot plans tempting or 8-10 shot plans with some challenging shots on steel  .

 

To the o.p. , the Glock will take you to grand master if you put the work in, if I was self defense oriented I would try to see if that worked for me as a first option. 

[chrisrdba]

I've edited my original post to better describe what I'm using for dry fire practice, sorry for any confusion. 

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, chrisrdba said:

 

 

Thanks, but now I'm a bit lost so please bear with me. 

 

Regarding using the slide stop -- as mentioned I want to shoot in Production, which will undoubtedly lead to reloads. Are you suggesting the slingshot method as opposed to using the slide stop/ release? Something else?.

 

Thanks!

He is suggesting that you shouldn't ever go to slide lock, not that you shouldn't use it. Simple rule for Production, if you are moving, you should be reloading, whether that means you are dropping a mag with 1 round in it or 6 rounds in it. If you do that, you shouldn't ever go to slide lock (unless the wheels fall completely off your stage run).

[IHAVEGAS]

3 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Simple rule for Production, if you are moving, you should be reloading,

 

You guys don't shoot production do you?

[GrumpyOne]

2 hours ago, chrisrdba said:

 

Also, I have one of those boresight laser gizmos that go in the chamber to help w dry firing like this one. My thought is using it in my CZ in double action enables me to not need to reset after each shot, work on transitions, etc. However, the trigger is obviously much different than the same gun in SA or the Glocks. Is this the wrong approach to that training?

 

Thanks!

I don't think that will help with the reset on any of your guns. The CZ will be a single action after the first shot during a match, so you would be practicing just one shot, the first of the stage, over and over.

[GrumpyOne]

3 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

You guys don't shoot production do you?

Yes, almost exclusively, and that statement above is what I was told when I first started, even though I tend to do as you suggested above with the evil stage designers. 

 

If you tell a newb to reload when they move, they will, most of the time. If not, they will do a standing reload in the middle of the next array because they still had 4 rounds left in the mag when they left the last position. You obviously don't need to reload every single time you move, but it gets them into the habit of reloading while moving instead of being flat footed in the middle of an array.

[IHAVEGAS]

Got it. Thank you. 

[chrisrdba]

17 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

If you tell a newb to reload when they move, they will, most of the time. If not, they will do a standing reload in the middle of the next array because they still had 4 rounds left in the mag when they left the last position. You obviously don't need to reload every single time you move, but it gets them into the habit of reloading while moving instead of being flat footed in the middle of an array.

 

I was totally unaware of this, thanks!

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, chrisrdba said:

Greetings. I'm wanting to get into USPSA and am definitely going to heed the advice I see all over the place of "shoot what you already own when you're new". My plan is to start in Production. My pistol options are:

 

1) CZ SP01 Tactical w Cajun Gun Works Pro Package. 

2) Gen 4 Glock 22 that's been converted to 9mm (effectively a G 17). 

3) Gen 5 Glock 19.

 

In the last few years I haven't done a lot of shooting. My main goal is to improve pistol handling skills for self defense, with the competition aspect coming after that. 

 

The CZ or G17 would be obvious choices. What the G19 has going for it is the ambi slide release, and the fact that I'm a lefty. I've had enough training to do fast mag changes even when I need to slingshot the slide -- likely not as fast as many competitors. Certainly not as fast as simply using my thumb. While practical pistol usage is really my main goal, I'll just assume the whole thing is a lot more fun when you dont come in dead last constantly.  All said, any advice on which of these 3 I should use based on my circumstances?

 

Also, I have one of those boresight laser gizmos that go in the chamber to help w dry firing like this one. My thought is using it in my CZ in double action enables me to not need to reset after each shot, work on transitions, etc. However, the trigger is obviously much different than the same gun in SA or the Glocks. Is this the wrong approach to that training?

 

Thanks!

 

I started in Production three years ago.  I have quite a bit of feedback for you and I'll do it when am back on a real key board this evening.  Typing a detailed answer on a phone sucks.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

There is no reason you should ever be using the slide stop in USPSA.  If that happens, you have made a mistake serious enough that the stage you're shooting is a lost cause anyway.

More than once I've planned a slide lock reload when there's a move between positions that takes more than a few steps in order to take advantage of that 11th round.

 

It has to be a really short move before the extra .5 second it takes my support hand thumb to hit the slide release on my way to reestablishing my grip to make a negative difference.

[chrisrdba]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I started in Production three years ago.  I have quite a bit of feedback for you and I'll do it when am back on a real key board this evening.  Typing a detailed answer on a phone sucks.

Looking forward to it— Ill take all the feedback I can get, thanks!

[twodownzero]

2 hours ago, chrisrdba said:

 

 

Thanks, but now I'm a bit lost so please bear with me. 

 

Regarding using the slide stop -- as mentioned I want to shoot in Production, which will undoubtedly lead to reloads. Are you suggesting the slingshot method as opposed to using the slide stop/ release? Something else?

 

Regarding the laser, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here. I don't mean a laser that gets mounted to a rail like this, I mean a boresight that gets loaded into the chamber to show me where my dry fire hits are landing like this. Would you recommend against using # 2 for dry fire training?

 

Definitely not trying to argue and appreciate your insights, but want to make sure I'm on the same page.

 

Thanks!

 

I am suggesting as was told to you after my post, that your gun should never be empty when you're reloading it in a match.  If it is, you screwed up, and you should just forget about that stage and move on.  As to slide stop versus slingshot, pick one, because it doesn't matter, either way that stage is a lost cause.  I personally slingshot because it's more reliable and if I've screwed up that bad, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

I would be opposed to any laser that shines on the target when you're dry firing.  You're supposed to be training your brain and eyes to know where the sights are when the shot breaks.  If you're training yourself to break that focus to look at the target where the laser is shining, you're not learning what you're supposed to be learning and very likely moving backwards.

[MemphisMechanic]

26 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I am suggesting as was told to you after my post, that your gun should never be empty when you're reloading it in a match.  If it is, you screwed up, and you should just forget about that stage and move on.  As to slide stop versus slingshot, pick one, because it doesn't matter, either way that stage is a lost cause.  I personally slingshot because it's more reliable and if I've screwed up that bad, it doesn't matter anyway.

This is fine blanket advice for a novice, however pushing to 11 and exiting the position while executing a slide-lock reload is a trick that should be in every veteran’s back pocket.

 

For a novice, absolutely stick with conservative plans that never get you anywhere near going empty.

 

Just be aware that someday you’ll grow beyond that. Sometimes shooting the gun dry is what wins a stage.
 

Edited November 17, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[twodownzero]

2 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

This is fine blanket advice for a novice, however pushing to 11 and exiting the position while executing a slide-lock reload is a trick that should be in every veteran’s back pocket.

 

Sometimes shooting the gun dry is what wins a stage.

 

For a novice, absolutely stick with conservative plans that never get you anywhere near going empty. Just be aware that someday you’ll grow beyond that.

 

 

Did the same thing in this classifier recently:

 

https://uspsa.org/viewer/03-03.pdf

 

Let's face it, the only plan in a classifier that matters is the perfectly executed/expert plan.  I performed the expert plan, sadly I didn't have perfect execution.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, twodownzero said:

 

that your gun should never be empty when you're reloading it in a match.  If it is, you screwed up, and you should just forget about that stage and move on. 

 

 

LOL This is plain bulls#!t

 

@chrisrdba please don't listen to this bad advice.  Never, EVER, give up on a stage no matter how badly you think you screwed up.

 

While an unplanned slide lock reload is not good for your stage time, giving up after one seeds some really disastrous habits in your mind.

Edited November 17, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[ima45dv8]

24 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

This is plain bulls#!t

Take it easy, cowboy.

You know how to disagree better than that.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, chrisrdba said:

Looking forward to it— Ill take all the feedback I can get, thanks!

 

OK, first off most of the advice you've been give is very good with one notable exception that I already pointed out for you.  So some of what I'm going to say might be repetitive but you might find some of it useful.

 

Let's start with dry fire.  The point of dry fire isn't to play clickity click with the trigger.  Resetting the trigger after every pull in every dry fire drill is a complete waste of time.  Save that for trigger manipulation drills.  For everything else you do in dry fire: draws, reloads, transitions, movement with the gun, unloaded starts (from the holster and from a table), etc you don't even need to touch the trigger at all.  And let me assure you that it's all those non-trigger pressing drills the ones that will provide you with the most benefit.  That's not to say that you shouldn't work on a clean trigger press without jerking it.  But a strong, correct grip will fix most of your trigger press problems.

 

At the stage where you are the first live fire priority is basic marksmanship and developing a grip that will make the pistol recoil predictably and brings the sights back on target in alignment without having to fix it afterwards.  As soon as you have basic marksmanship down relatively well (to me that means you can land 10/10 shots in the A zone at 25 yards at a slow pace) then you need to start amping up the speed of your shooting in parallel to developing your grip.  A grip is useless if it can hold together when shooting one round per second but falls apart when trying to shoot two or three rounds per second.  I can't stress this enough, shooting speed will not happen on its own after you get "more accurate".  You have to force the issue and fail.

 

As to the gun, it depends.  If the Glock 19 is your carry gun, start with the G22.  But even if you start with Glock, put some time with the CZ.  As you develop you might find that the CZ might make shooting fast and accurately easier.  Whatever you do make sure the pistol you choose has an extremely rough grip.  You can get with in many ways.  With the Glocks you can add skateboard tape, you can stipple them, or you can glue on silicon carbide.  With the CZ, LOK Bogie grip panels are the ticket, as well as skateboard tape on the front and back straps.  Also get some liquid chalk grip lotion from Amazon and put it on your hands every time you dry or live fire.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

Take it easy, cowboy.

You know how to disagree better than that.

 

Sorry about that.  But it got me red to see some really bad advice given to a new shooter.

[ima45dv8]

I understand. And teaching new members here bad habits should be avoided with equal vigor.

[Boomstick303]

There will be times in mag restricted divisions, such as production a shooter could be dry after shooting a position(s) to plan or if a makeup or two were required at a given position.  Just because you run dry is not reason to fret what so ever.  Reload and continue your plan.

 

Giving up on any stage is horrific advice. I cannot stress how many times I finish a match and think I had a horrible match only to realize the courses of fire were not only difficult for me there were difficult for just about everyone else, and I finished way further up the leader board than expected.   

[chrisrdba]

I appreciate everyones input so far.
 

FWIW Id rather finish knowing I screwed up than knowing I gave up, so I don’t see myself quitting a stage because I had to reload more than expected.

Edited November 17, 2021 by chrisrdba