Need Insight on New 2011 9mm Minor Build

[chowellacsbd]

I'm having another gun built and would like insight on the following two (mockups) ideas.

 

A few things to note:

• Only for local steel matches, no USPSA, IPSC
• 2011 only as I have plenty of mags and enjoy the weight of the gun
• Shooting factory (minor pf) rounds only
• Using SS cheely grip
• Using atlas slide for either style (open/atlas optic system)
• 5in govt slide w/kkm bull barrel
• NO comp as my limited gun using the same parts barely moves during recoil
• DLC for final finish

 

 

Any and all thoughts or recommendations are much appreciated.

 

 

First option is a 5in atlas slide milled for their optic plate system, tritopped, and panel cuts

 

 

 

 

 

Second option is a 5in atlas slide with rear swoop cut, panel cuts and atlas frame mount for RDS

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by chowellacsbd

[RangerTrace]

I wouldn't go 5" for a 9mm minor gun.  Do their 4.6" setup as it will shoot flatter.  

[travail]

Having done both the slide ride and frame mount I'm finding I prefer the frame mount as it's a little easier to track the dot without that part moving. Not a huge difference, but seems preferable to me right now.

[Boomstick303]

10 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Do their 4.6" setup as it will shoot flatter.  

 

Agreed.  Seems like the 4.6" setup is the sweet spot for 9mm minor.

[chowellacsbd]

7 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I wouldn't go 5" for a 9mm minor gun.  Do their 4.6" setup as it will shoot flatter.  

 

For a 4.6 build, I'd be cutting down a 5in bull correct? Commander or Govt recoil spring?

[chowellacsbd]

7 minutes ago, travail said:

Having done both the slide ride and frame mount I'm finding I prefer the frame mount as it's a little easier to track the dot without that part moving. Not a huge difference, but seems preferable to me right now.

 

Thats what I was thinking too.

 

Downside to that is Im left with an Open-only gun, versus having a sight system I can swap back to irons if I needed.

[travail]

Why not do both and combine the two? Have the sight system you can swap out and also have the frame drilled for a mount? My new gun is that way where I can swap out the sights for irons, slide ride, or slide racker with a frame mounted optic. Pretty versatile.

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, chowellacsbd said:

For a 4.6 build, I'd be cutting down a 5in bull correct? Commander or Govt recoil spring?

 

If you intend to buy an Atlas slide, I would talk to them about the barrel as well.  I believe all of their 9mm minor guns are of the 4.6" variety.  I believe that they use the commander recoil spring.  My recoil spring looks like a normal 1911 spring cut down in my Athena with is a 4.6" minor 9mm.    

[chowellacsbd]

27 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

If you intend to buy an Atlas slide, I would talk to them about the barrel as well.  I believe all of their 9mm minor guns are of the 4.6" variety.  I believe that they use the commander recoil spring.  My recoil spring looks like a normal 1911 spring cut down in my Athena with is a 4.6" minor 9mm.    

 

I plan on calling them today to ask about what Ill need to go from a 5in to 4.6, thanks!

[chowellacsbd]

More importanly though, whats everyones thoughts on frame-mounted versus slide mounted? Most likely be running an RMR (1 or 3.5 moa). Cheely tacrail as well.

[RangerTrace]

59 minutes ago, chowellacsbd said:

 

For a 4.6 build, I'd be cutting down a 5in bull correct? Commander or Govt recoil spring?

I bet Atlas sells them precut to match their slides....

[chowellacsbd]

2 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I bet Atlas sells them precut to match their slides....

 

They do, but they’re never in stock

[chowellacsbd]

Update: Spoke to Atlas

4.6in KKM barrels are pretty impossible to find right now due to supply chain issues.

They dont recommend cutting 5in bull to 4.6.

4.6 precut slides with atlas rds cut are out of stock. not sure when more will available.

 

So, the question now is, 5in or 4.25 commander...?

[zzt]

I spoke to Adam regarding a custom Open minor gun for steel challenge a couple of years ago.  I planned on using factory ammo.  He suggested a 5" barrel with one poppel hole and no comp.  I would absolutely NOT go the Commander route.

 

I would definitely go with option two.  Less reciprocating mass is almost always a good thing.  Frame mounted dots live longer, move less and are more consistent.  I have open guns set up for major, minor and mouse fart.  All wear the same frame mounted dot.  I can move between them and never have to play find the dot.  You WILL play find the dot/sight for a while every time you switch sight heights.

 

My mouse fart Open gun is used for outlaw steel matches where the steel only has to be rung to score.  No comps or poppels, because they are not permitted at these matches.  I run sub 100PF loads and it functions 100%.  The only reason I don't use it for SCSA Steel Challenge is I built a dedicated Open minor gun specifically for that.  I was asked not to shoot my 1470fps major load at one club and another has a 1250fps limit.  So I optimized a compensated gun to shoot 124gr 140-144PF loads. 

 

BTW, IMO a 5 or 6 moa dot is best for steel.  8 is okay.  1-4 moa wash out in bright sunlight and you really have to crank them up to see them.

Edited November 16, 2021 by zzt

[chowellacsbd]

5 minutes ago, zzt said:

I spoke to Adam regarding a custom Open minor gun for steel challenge a couple of years ago.  I planned on using factory ammo.  He suggested a 5" barrel with one poppel hole and no comp.  I would absolutely NOT go the Commander route.

 

I would definitely go with option two.  Less reciprocating mass is almost always a good thing.  Frame mounted dots live longer, move less and are more consistent.  I have open guns set up for major, minor and mouse fart.  All wear the same frame mounted dot.  I can move between them and never have to play find the dot.  You WILL play find the dot/sight for a while every time you switch sight heights.

 

My mouse fart Open gun is used for outlaw steel matches where the steel only has to be rung to score.  No comps or poppels, because they are not permitted at these matches.  I run sub 100PF loads and it functions 100%.  The only reason I don't use it for SCSA Steel Challenge is I built a dedicated Open minor gun specifically for that.  I was asked not to shoot my 1470fps major load at one club and another has a 1250fps limit.  So I optimized a compensated gun to shoot 124gr 140-144PF loads. 

 

I think that sums it up then   Thanks for all that info, much appreciated.

 

Thanks to everyone who added as well. Lots of great minds on this forum that've helped every time I've had a question.

[RangerTrace]

2 hours ago, chowellacsbd said:

Update: Spoke to Atlas

4.6in KKM barrels are pretty impossible to find right now due to supply chain issues.

They dont recommend cutting 5in bull to 4.6.

4.6 precut slides with atlas rds cut are out of stock. not sure when more will available.

 

So, the question now is, 5in or 4.25 commander...?

You're running a dot, so the faster commander slide will be an advantage and you don't need the sight radius.  I've got two of the Atlas Nyx pistols and love the way they shoot.

[chowellacsbd]

8 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

You're running a dot, so the faster commander slide will be an advantage and you don't need the sight radius.  I've got two of the Atlas Nyx pistols and love the way they shoot.

 

Dammit!  i was hoping you weren't going to say that...I do love me a commander in 9mm.

 

Ok... @RangerTrace, @zzt ...im going to need you both to figure this out   lol

[chowellacsbd]

11 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

You're running a dot, so the faster commander slide will be an advantage and you don't need the sight radius.  I've got two of the Atlas Nyx pistols and love the way they shoot.

 

Btw, what ever happened to your hard chromed cheely build? That was a nice gun.

[chowellacsbd]

@RangerTrace

 

Something like this then...?

[zzt]

I don't buy the Commander slide being faster.  It has to be more heavily sprung than a 5" and that slows it down.  All of my Open guns wear lightened slides.  They are all 5", 10.5 oz. slides.  Splits for double taps are all sub 0.2 seconds.  Total time from firing to lock up is measured in the hundredths of seconds.  There is no way on earth you can transition from one steel target to the next and get there before the dot settles.

 

I'll give you an example from Smoke & Hope.  That stage requires the widest transitions.  To prove a point I'm going to use A GM's rimfire rifle times as an example.  His total time for the stage at the last shoot was 6.31 seconds.  That averages out to 1.57 seconds per string.  Let's say .57 seconds from beep to first target.  That leaves .25 seconds average for each of the next four shots.  That is still longer than cycle time and dot settle.  So what good is a slide that moves .02 seconds faster than another.  Noe.

 

Now let's take a more realistic example.  The Peak time for S&H in Open is 8.50 seconds.  You make Grand Master if you can shoot it in 8.95 seconds.  That's an average of 2.23 seconds per string.  Allowing 1 second for the draw and shot at the first target leaves 0.30 seconds for each of the remaining four shots.  Again, plenty of time for cycling and dot settle.  This is for a GM.  There are not many people this fast.  You make Master at 10 seconds, A Class at 11.33 and B Class at 14.17 seconds.  So for the 'average' shooter, the gun could take a nap between transitions.

 

Now for some additional reasons:  I've never shot a Commander length 1911 where the muzzle did not rise more than a Gov model.  Even if you believe the C will cycle faster, your splits will be slower.  There there is a matter of balance.  You want a 2011 gun with a Cheely SS grip.  That is exactly what I have.  I have all set up so that the balance point is right over the index finger of my support hand.  So the weight of the gun is between your hands.  That makes for the optimal situation.  If there is weigh out in front of your hand, transitions are slower and it fells a little like you are swinging a log.  If all the weight is close to you grip hand, the muzzle tends to wander.  You have to be perfect with your trigger pull, because any imperfection tends to pull the muzzle off target.  That is what you are going to get with a steel grip 2011 Commander.

 

Now some of this is personal preference.  I find the slide action of a Commander to be violent.  The is a reason no one builds many Open shorties today.  The shortest most want is a 5" (4.6" slide).

 

All this being said, no matter what you get you will be tuning the gun to your factory load.  You will play with different recoil springs, firing fin stop radii and mainspring weights.  You want soft recoil, fast slide action with enough dwell time to consistently strip the next round, and minimal to no muzzle rise.  All of this is much more important than arbitrarily shaving a couple of hundredths off cycle time.

 

I'd recommend you try to shoot both.  I'm assuming you've only shot Commanders in 1911s.  2011s are different beasts.  I think you'll have trouble finding a 2011 Commander to try.  Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide.

[zzt]

cho, here is a picture of one of my Open guns.  As I  mentioned in the PM I removed metal where it would do no harm and left it full strength where needed.

 

Since you will be shooting minor only, I'd be okay with tri-topping and a rear scallop cut.  I started with a long wide frame and cut it back to improve the balance.  There are no holes in the slide.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by zzt

[RangerTrace]

I still have the Cheely Commander as it's one of my duty guns.  The Atlas grips are too aggressive for my current assignment where the grip is always rubbing on your side.  

 

 

[chowellacsbd]

@zzt So, accordig to Atlas, their Commander slides are cut down govt slides so they retain the full govt stroke, not the shorter commander stroke.

 

Does this at all make a difference to what you were saying previously? 

[chowellacsbd]

So a 4.5 / 4.6 build is not going to happen mainly due to nobody having the parts (slide/barrel) to work with. 

 

So it's either a slide mounted RDS in commander or govt, or a dedicated racer (frame mounted).

 

Whats the word enos-verse...

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by chowellacsbd

[zzt]

2 hours ago, chowellacsbd said:

@zzt So, accordig to Atlas, their Commander slides are cut down govt slides so they retain the full govt stroke, not the shorter commander stroke.

 

Does this at all make a difference to what you were saying previously? 

 

Yes, full Government stroke is a game changer on a shorty.  I wonder if they are stroking it.  You may find you have to shorten the frame rails to get a full stroke.  The only other thing I'd worry about is balance.  Since you plan to use the Cheely heavy long wide frame, that might not be a problem.

 

If you are willing to make the necessary mods, go for it.  Personally, I'll stick with 5 inchers.  They come out perfectly balanced, for me, and I use less powder and get less muzzle blast.  Good luck with your build.