11-degree forcing cones?

[testosterone]

4 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I'm not terribly optimistic about that, however, and my suspicion that I'm going to have to see if Ruger will reduce the B/C gap for me is growing.

 

I played with 3n38 early on.  Without a comp, even with minor loads, it is decidedly terrible, but this is subjective.  The reason clays is so subjectively nice to shoot is its the lightest charge to get the job done.

 

I have questions.

Im trying to decipher through these posts, your gun gets to the point that you can't pull the trigger right?

The gun only stops after you fire at least 1 round in the current clip, its not getting stuck when you drop a fresh moon in? 

Regarding headspace, I am assuming the gun spins 100% totally freely with a fresh loaded moon in it?

It likewise spins free if you just hammer out 8 rounds and then spin it with the empties?

though maybe a hint of drag by comparison?

When the gun stops, does the cyl have any shake or wiggle at all or is it just locked up?

When it stops, does it open easily or is it also super tight?  

 

When i was working up early data for my 929's  the only thing that would ever cause the gun to malfunction like you are seeing is headspace basically going to zero after firing...ie the brass would basically not extract without a hard whack etc...so in other words, the round is for whatever reason when fired moving fully back into the blast shield and then expanding in the chargehole in the absolute most rearward/highest pressure point against the blast shield and voila, no rotate...For sure I can reproduce this with IMR brass, the stuff with the ledge inside, and some other weird headstamps.   Speer/win/pmc/fc/RP/starline etc all work equally well.

 

Or of course, you can also create an issue by having spotty brass in particular moonclips, these will cause immediate issue to the point of not even being able to close the cylinder, but I am assuming this is not whats going on here.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

Im trying to decipher through these posts, your gun gets to the point that you can't pull the trigger right?

 

Correct. I can usually thumb the hammer back, though, owing to the greater leverage.

 

There were some lockups early on where I couldn't operate the hammer by hand, but those were the ones, I believe, caused by a broken hammer spring.

 

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

The gun only stops after you fire at least 1 round in the current clip, its not getting stuck when you drop a fresh moon in? 

 

I don't recall an instance where I had problems with the first round in a moon clip.

 

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

Regarding headspace, I am assuming the gun spins 100% totally freely with a fresh loaded moon in it?

It likewise spins free if you just hammer out 8 rounds and then spin it with the empties?

though maybe a hint of drag by comparison?

 

Fresh-loaded I can't say for sure, although my dry-fire dummies have a bit of drag compared to an empty gun but otherwise don't cause problems. (Two dry-fire moons are sized, loaded, and crimped; the other is loaded with unsized empties to get a more realistic ejection.)

 

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

When the gun stops, does the cyl have any shake or wiggle at all or is it just locked up?

When it stops, does it open easily or is it also super tight?  

 

Typically, I can easily open the cylinder. If I hold the trigger so that the cylinder stays unlocked, I can turn it readily with my fingers.

 

1 hour ago, testosterone said:

 

When i was working up early data for my 929's  the only thing that would ever cause the gun to malfunction like you are seeing is headspace basically going to zero after firing...ie the brass would basically not extract without a hard whack etc...so in other words, the round is for whatever reason when fired moving fully back into the blast shield and then expanding in the chargehole in the absolute most rearward/highest pressure point against the blast shield and voila, no rotate.

 

You know, you might be on to something here. 160gr in .38 Short Colt with a fast powder is, I've heard it said, pretty sporty pressure-wise. My brass is slightly sticky on ejection. The worst jammed gun I've had in the post-firing-pin-spring era was at Battle for the North Coast, where I reloaded a moon with two bent prongs, such that one cartridge had substantially less headspace than the others.

 

If that's the issue, I'd expect things to be substantially better with the 147gr bullet and a slower powder.

[Grendel]

Is it normal procedure to have a bevel on the charge hole off the cylinder? Or could it contribute to the fouling?

[Dr. Phil]

The bevel aids in inserting the moons. I don't think it can contribute to fouling.

I have seen some pretty radical bevels around here!

Probably considered a must for competition guns.

 

My 929 seems to "tie up" mainly from too fast powder. Light bullets at lower velocities don't do it. (My SCSA load is a 96 or 105 gr @ 900- 1000 fps)

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Dr. Phil

[Fishbreath]

46 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

My 929 seems to "tie up" mainly from too fast powder. Light bullets at lower velocities don't do it.

 

Once I get some Open .40 ammo loaded for this weekend's match (also on the turret press), I plan to do some testing of 147gr Universal and CFE Pistol loads for the wheelgun (thanks again!), so hopefully I'm in the same boat.

[testosterone]

9 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

pretty sporty pressure-wise. My brass is slightly sticky on ejection. The worst jammed gun I've had in the post-firing-pin-spring era was at Battle for the North Coast, where I reloaded a moon with two bent prongs, such that one cartridge had substantially less headspace than the others.

 

If that's the issue, I'd expect things to be substantially better with the 147gr bullet and a slower powder.

 

so out of order

bent moons are no bueono, the clip itself definitely effects the headspace math, even a litttle bend is ded.

 

some bubba/gunstore logic...clays is on the fast end of the burn chart.  The pressure issue is less an absolute issue and more a burn rate issue, ie...the bullet needs more pressure to get moving than to keep moving, but clays burns up so fast it jumps past that point and voila, pressure problem.   Note that the reason clays is "soft" is because its 100% burnt early..

 

Have you put up pics of your fires brass with primers?  any pressure signs at all?  how do they look.     The load you are doing is well worn and is not crazy but if your gun is particularly tight, and you do mention brass is slightly sticky on extract(this is not good), it might be contributing...

 

Things you can try

-with shortcolts, you don't need moons right?   just single load and shoot until it jams(if ever?). like a loaded moon, is there any difference in how the gun spins at anytime?

 

also, are you loading the short colt with 9mm dies or 38 dies?   i don't think this will mattter but curious.

 

-do as god intended and get a some single headstamp 9mm and try that...i favor RP but fc/speer/pmc/starline etc etc are all good.   just us the moons that came with the gun, or pm me and I can send you some for diff headstamps, i was told the 929 clips are same for super gp's.

 

In whatever case, go shoot the gun until it fails, bring your feeler gauge and without fixing make sure there is still some BC gap to rule that end up totally, I doubt that is the issue, my money is on my theory prior, at some point for whatever reason the headspace is going to zero and under alot of pressure is stopping thing.   

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by testosterone

[Fishbreath]

55 minutes ago, testosterone said:

bent moons are no bueono, the clip itself definitely effects the headspace math, even a litttle bend is ded.

 

Yup, I check them twice now: when I load them and before I put them on my belt at matches.

 

56 minutes ago, testosterone said:

Have you put up pics of your fires brass with primers?  any pressure signs at all?  how do they look.     The load you are doing is well worn and is not crazy but if your gun is particularly tight, and you do mention brass is slightly sticky on extract(this is not good), it might be contributing...

 

I'll get some later today.

 

The gun doesn't seem particularly tight based on gap, headspace, and endshake, but cases expanding when back against the recoil shield during firing, plus grit/dirt on the front of the cylinder, add up to a plausible scenario.

 

56 minutes ago, testosterone said:

also, are you loading the short colt with 9mm dies or 38 dies?   i don't think this will mattter but curious.

 

-do as god intended and get a some single headstamp 9mm and try that...i favor RP but fc/speer/pmc/starline etc etc are all good.   just us the moons that came with the gun, or pm me and I can send you some for diff headstamps, i was told the 929 clips are same for super gp's.

 

.38 dies, with a 9mm FCD. (It isn't swaging bullets or sizing the neck down—verified with pulled bullets and calipers.)

 

This is a .38/.357 gun, so 9mm is a no-go. (Good to know about the moons, though, if I ever switch calibers in the future.)

 

I'll try the two tests you mention (shoot singles rather than ammo on moons, check for B/C gap when gun is stuck) next time I'm at the range.

[testosterone]

2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

.38 dies, with a 9mm FCD. (It isn't swaging bullets or sizing the neck down—verified with pulled bullets and calipers.)

 

This is a .38/.357 gun, so 9mm is a no-go. (Good to know about the moons, though, if I ever switch calibers in the future.)

 

I'll try the two tests you mention (shoot singles rather than ammo on moons, check for B/C gap when gun is stuck) next time I'm at the range.

 

OH lol, i thought we were talking 9mm, my bad.  its solvable, you can get to bottom of this.

[Grendel]

2 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

The bevel aids in inserting the moons. I don't think it can contribute to fouling.

I have seen some pretty radical bevels around here!

Probably considered a must for competition guns.

 

My 929 seems to "tie up" mainly from too fast powder. Light bullets at lower velocities don't do it. (My SCSA load is a 96 or 105 gr @ 900- 1000 fps)

 

 

Sorry, i meant the exit of the chamber - yes, i do know for moons there is need for a bevel

[testosterone]

34 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

.38 dies, with a 9mm FCD. (It isn't swaging bullets or sizing the neck down—verified with pulled bullets and calipers.)

 

unrelated probably, you are using the FCD for what reason?   If you are having slippage that is lack of tension and the root solution is to size with a udie, not a fcd...   I know alot of people swear by them and have success but I think its resolving an issue you can fix earlier on the process....

 

Undersize Reloading Die, .38 Special (egwguns.com)

 

use that instead and make sure you adjust it so you full length size all the way to the shell plate.   The fcd is working a straightwall load(and chamber) into a taper shape, at least on paper. 

 

Then when you hit the last station, all you are doing is taking the bell off.   A wise one taught me that loading 357/38spec/38 long colt/38 sc that you crank the crimp die down till it cuts in, preferrably till they tumble, then back off an 1/8th.  Basically no ridge, as if there is a groove even if there isn't one.   This commentary was made in context of using berrys 158's which have no groove and these were by far the most generically accurate bullets i ever shot out of my 627's with this method..

[Fishbreath]

5 minutes ago, testosterone said:

unrelated probably, you are using the FCD for what reason?   If you are having slippage that is lack of tension and the root solution is to size with a udie, not a fcd...   I know alot of people swear by them and have success but I think its resolving an issue you can fix earlier on the process....

 

Undersize Reloading Die, .38 Special (egwguns.com)

 

use that instead and make sure you adjust it so you full length size all the way to the shell plate.   The fcd is working a straightwall load(and chamber) into a taper shape, at least on paper. 

 

Mostly I'm using it because it was the most expedient path to having separate seating/crimping. I only use it to de-flare the case—verified with calipers along the whole length.

 

7 minutes ago, Grendel said:

Sorry, i meant the exit of the chamber - yes, i do know for moons there is need for a bevel

 

I thought it was a trick of the light in the photos, but there is indeed a bevel on the ends of the chambers, on closer inspection. I'd never realized!

[PatJones]

Is it cold enough in PA to require gives already?

 

The only thing that stands out to me in any of your photos is that the rear of the face of barrel appears to be cut crooked. If the tight side is dragging that might be the resistance you feel.

Edited October 18, 2021 by PatJones
Spelling

[Fishbreath]

39 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Is it cold enough in PA to require gives already?

 

I have a golf glove in my bag that I used to wear when it was rainy and I was doing the strong hand reload. Over the course of this year I discovered that it also helps with grip in general when my hands are sweaty, and subsequently that it just helps. Similar effect to grip enhancer.

 

43 minutes ago, PatJones said:

The only thing that stands out to me in any of your photos is that the rear of the face of barrel appears to be cut crooked. If the tight side is dragging that might be the resistance you feel.

 

It is, a little bit. There's a spot at about 7 to 8 o'clock that's lower than the rest—another reason to have Ruger take a look at it, I guess.

[PatJones]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I have a golf glove in my bag that I used to wear when it was rainy and I was doing the strong hand reload. Over the course of this year I discovered that it also helps with grip in general when my hands are sweaty, and subsequently that it just helps. Similar effect to grip enhancer.

 

 

It is, a little bit. There's a spot at about 7 to 8 o'clock that's lower than the rest—another reason to have Ruger take a look at it, I guess.

If you have a gunsmith who can file flat, just a few swipes of a file will correct that. Otherwise there are guided cutters

[Fishbreath]

I thought about renting a facing cutter with my last order from 4D, but the B/C gap is already big enough so that I didn't want to open it further.

[PatJones]

2 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

I thought about renting a facing cutter with my last order from 4D, but the B/C gap is already big enough so that I didn't want to open it further.

How do you have drag on the cylinder face _and_ a larger cylinder gap than you would like? Have you measured end shake on the cylinder?

[ysrracer]

When my buddy's gun was jamming it was the ejector rod unscrewing. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by ysrracer

[PatJones]

3 hours ago, ysrracer said:

When my buddy's gun was jamming it was the ejector rod unscrewing. 

That can be a thing with Smiths, but the revo is question is a Ruger. Ruger ejector rods work differently; they don't rotate.

[Fishbreath]

4 hours ago, PatJones said:

How do you have drag on the cylinder face _and_ a larger cylinder gap than you would like? Have you measured end shake on the cylinder?

 

I think it was 0.006" or so? It's in an older thread here somewhere. Drag marks plus biggish B/C gap plus moderately large endshake plus sticky extraction has me thinking testosterone may be right about some kind of zero headspace condition. I have some test loads with a slower powder and 147gr instead of 160gr bullets I'm going to try on Thursday. Hopefully there'll be something to report beyond 'all test results are essentially the same as they've been lately'.

[PatJones]

7 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I think it was 0.006" or so? It's in an older thread here somewhere. Drag marks plus biggish B/C gap plus moderately large endshake plus sticky extraction has me thinking testosterone may be right about some kind of zero headspace condition. I have some test loads with a slower powder and 147gr instead of 160gr bullets I'm going to try on Thursday. Hopefully there'll be something to report beyond 'all test results are essentially the same as they've been lately'.

6 thou of end shake is not insignificant. Subtract that from your measured cylinder gap. Remember to use the measurement of the tight side of the measurement.

 

End shake reduces the cylinder gap while the hand is pushing the cylinder forward. This could cause the drag you're experiencing. I have the factory limits for S&W, but my documentation is at work. Maybe someone here has the numbers.

[Fishbreath]

Iowegan's Book of Knowledge on the Ruger DA guns quotes 0.002" to 0.005" as the acceptable measurement for endshake, and 0.004" to 0.008" as the acceptable B/C gap, but I'm not sure if that's a factory spec or the eponymous smith's preference.

[Farmer]

Don’t know if you’ve had this happen to you but on my wife’s SP and on my SRH’s I’ve had carbon work it’s way between the cylinder and crane. It sort of starts off slowly but pretty soon the cyl is very hard to turn. Sometimes just some solvent will clear it up but other times you have to disassemble and clean. 

[Fishbreath]

I had some crud in the bearing race on the cylinder the last time I took everything down, a month or so ago, but that's solved now. It is definitely a thing to put on the cleaning checklist for heavily-used Rugers.

[Farmer]

3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

I had some crud in the bearing race on the cylinder the last time I took everything down, a month or so ago, but that's solved now. It is definitely a thing to put on the cleaning checklist for heavily-used Rugers.

How did you solve it?

When I sent my SRH 454 in for a recall they just polished the bearing surface of the crane and did a pretty crappy job of it too! Looks like they used a belt sander. 

[testosterone]

15 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I think it was 0.006" or so? It's in an older thread here somewhere. Drag marks plus biggish B/C gap plus moderately large endshake plus sticky extraction has me thinking testosterone may be right about some kind of zero headspace condition. 

 

just speculating. a biggish bc gap probably doesn't matter except for accuracy and loss of velocity, bigger means more crud clearance and really, the crud is getting a 20k psi blowout...

 

i watched one of your match vids where you were struggling with this, it looked like the gun always hung after at least one shot fired, at least from what I saw.

 

When you do thumb it back, is it hard or easy?  

 

interested to hear what happens, like i mentioned, just shoot it till it stops and then check if cyl has any wiggle or is locked in place then get the feeler gauge out and see where the interference is.  you can also magic marker the ends of everything and look for drag signs as you go.

 

I ask about thumbing being easy/hard because it is possible that there is an actual action problem unrelated to headspace or bc gap.   when you thumb it back, everything is engaging from the opposite side.  im not sure why it would only do it intermitently though...