11-degree forcing cones?

[Fishbreath]

4 minutes ago, testosterone said:

i watched one of your match vids where you were struggling with this, it looked like the gun always hung after at least one shot fired, at least from what I saw.

 

When you do thumb it back, is it hard or easy?  

 

I went back through and watched some myself, and I don't think I saw any cases where it happened on the first shot of a moon clip either.

 

It's harder than usual to thumb back, as though I'm pulling some kind of obstruction clear. There was an intermittent action problem relating to trigger/hammer geometry, which I talked about briefly in the Super GP100 tuning thread, but that's solved now, and the symptoms are a little different. (It manifested as a hitch in the trigger that occurred when the leverage transferred from the hammer dog to the DA sear, whereas this one happens a bit later in the cycle when the pawl contacts the ratchet.

 

24 minutes ago, Farmer said:

How did you solve it?

 

It wasn't the crane tube proper, but rather the track in the cylinder where the ball bearings in the crane tube run. That I just cleaned out. Lately I've been going very light on the oil in that area, which has helped.

[Fishbreath]

Range trip with the 147gr CFE Pistol load is in the books. As expected, the recoil impulse was sharper, and the muzzle definitely climbed higher.

 

I forgot my feeler gauges, so I couldn't do the full battery of tests testosterone recommended. That said, qualitatively, the trigger/jam issues with the lighter bullet and slower powder weren't substantially improved. I could, however, see the moon clip backed out slightly against the recoil shield. I also ended up with drag marks on the cylinder face.

 

My suspicion, at this point, is that it's some combination of the two issues: wide B/C gap means heavier fouling, no matter the powder or bullet, and the zero headspace issue plus the wide endshake pushes the cylinder far enough forward so that there's interference between fouling on the cylinder face and forcing cone.

 

Ruger say they'll give me an RMA number if I call rather than email, so after this weekend's match (in which I'm only briefly shooting the revolver, for the second go at the classifer), it's time to return all parts to stock and send it on a little field trip to see if they'll tighten things up for me.

[Farmer]

Keep us updated, whenever I sent one in for mods they either wouldn’t do them or would just do a stock adjustment and leave it at that. That was when Bill was still around and I don’t think he liked them doing anything “extra”. I think things have loosened up there lately. 

[ysrracer]

Doesn't Hamilton Bowen work on Rugers ?

[testosterone]

10 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

Ruger say they'll give me an RMA number if I call rather than email, so after this weekend's match (in which I'm only briefly shooting the revolver, for the second go at the classifer), it's time to return all parts to stock and send it on a little field trip to see if they'll tighten things up for me.

 

maybe you will get lucky and ruger will check it out and get something out of spec in spec.

Ruger will definitely NOT test fire the gun with a wildcat load in a moonclip though which is what you are shooting.   They have some OTC test ammo, be it 357 mag or 38 spec that they will test fire(not in moonclips) and my guess is it will function perfectly.   have you tried that btw?  i know its an expensive ish test if you can't load your own,  but run a few boxes of 38 special through it.  

 

Not to be a debby downer, just don't put to much hope in Ruger fixing.

 

[Fishbreath]

I have supplies for .38, but I'd need to buy another turret for the turret press to load it, now that I have my .38 Short Colt turret set up. I did have some issues with .38 handloads last year, but those conceivably could have been the early stages of the broken firing pin spring that caused me so much grief at the beginning of this year.

 

Ruger maven Iowegan made this remark in an old thread at rugerforum.net, which someone also pointed me to in an older thread of mine here.

 

Quote

[endshake] can also come from the ratchet column striking the recoil shield in the rear ... especially with high round count revolvers. There's not much you can do about "rear" endshake because a shim won't work and still allow the pawl to rotate the cylinder. When there is wear on the ratchet column, the B/C gap will increase well beyond spec and headspace will get tighter.

 

Not inconceivable, although I don't think my headspace measurement was particularly low.

[PatJones]

8 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

Not inconceivable, although I don't think my headspace measurement was particularly low.

I typically correct end shake before even considering the headspace or cylinder gap.

[Fishbreath]

Either I measured headspace wrong before, or I have more variance in my case rims and moon clips than I thought. With the cylinder held aft, there's very little headspace, more like 0.002" than 0.010", which seems more than tight enough to give me trouble as the gun heats up. I gave Ruger that measurement, along with endshake and B/C gap, and they gave me an RMA number and a shipping label. I'll remove my custom parts and lighter springs in the next day or two, then drop it off at FedEx, and we'll see what happens.

 

I plan on sending them eight unsized fired empties and eight sized empties, plus a moon clip or two, in the event it's helpful or demonstrative.

 

On the positive news front, it did work fine for the classifier at this weekend's match, where a 100% on 18-08 should bump me firmly into M.

[Farmer]

Congratulations on the good shooting. 
But, are you sure you want to use FedEx? Did Ruger specify them? Just have heard Allot of bad things related to FedEx, firearms and parts. Just make sure you take pics and package it really well. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Farmer

[tim_w]

Make sure it's fully insured as well.

 

 

[Fishbreath]

Ruger provided the shipping label.

[Fishbreath]

It's back! Predictably, they didn't return the moon clip and empties against which I took my headspace measurement, but so it goes. They did at least send a sticker for my ammo can and one of those silicone wipe-down cloths instead.

 

The RMA sheet says that they 'opened the throat', which I take to mean some forcing cone work. They may have slightly deepened my 11-degree cut, definitely chamfered the edge, and may have given it a turn or two with a 90-degree facing cutter. It does look squarer to the cylinder face.

 

They also replaced the pawl. I wish they'd sent the old one back so I could compare, but the part that engages the ratchet seems a little chunkier. No other serious work, beyond a deep cleaning that I consider instructive in how the factory thinks the gun should be lubricated—I was running it a little wetter in some places that might conceivably have gotten dirty enough to affect function given oil to attract grit.

 

I don't think they did anything that would have affected this, but endshake seems lower? Maybe I was allowing too much drag in the feeler gauges, or maybe I wrote down the ends of the range wrong. Or maybe it's just an artifact of hope.

 

I have some chrono samples to try this weekend, and some ammo left on moon clips in my ammo box, so I'll give it a workout tomorrow and see what the story is.

[pskys2]

6 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

It's back! Predictably, they didn't return the moon clip and empties against which I took my headspace measurement, but so it goes. They did at least send a sticker for my ammo can and one of those silicone wipe-down cloths instead.

 

The RMA sheet says that they 'opened the throat', which I take to mean some forcing cone work. They may have slightly deepened my 11-degree cut, definitely chamfered the edge, and may have given it a turn or two with a 90-degree facing cutter. It does look squarer to the cylinder face.

 

They also replaced the pawl. I wish they'd sent the old one back so I could compare, but the part that engages the ratchet seems a little chunkier. No other serious work, beyond a deep cleaning that I consider instructive in how the factory thinks the gun should be lubricated—I was running it a little wetter in some places that might conceivably have gotten dirty enough to affect function given oil to attract grit.

 

I don't think they did anything that would have affected this, but endshake seems lower? Maybe I was allowing too much drag in the feeler gauges, or maybe I wrote down the ends of the range wrong. Or maybe it's just an artifact of hope.

 

I have some chrono samples to try this weekend, and some ammo left on moon clips in my ammo box, so I'll give it a workout tomorrow and see what the story is.

I was under the impression that loaded rounds, and even empty cases, couldn't be shipped with a firearm?  It may have been a shipper, gunsmith or manufacturer that didn't want it that way.

So I'd guess they should have included the moon clip back, but probably not the cases?

[Farmer]

8 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I was under the impression that loaded rounds, and even empty cases, couldn't be shipped with a firearm?  It may have been a shipper, gunsmith or manufacturer that didn't want it that way.

So I'd guess they should have included the moon clip back, but probably not the cases?

Generally they say not to include live ammo, custom grips or accessories because they may or will not be returned. Kind of a blanket statement. I talked to a tech that said you’d be surprised how many loaded guns they get. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Farmer

[Fishbreath]

I would have been substantially more steamed if they'd kept my grips!

[Fishbreath]

Today's range trip went well. The run ran for 150 rounds without problems.

 

All of my Clays/Clay Dot loads are super-dirty, however. Ramshot Zip under Blue Bullets 147gr is a whole lot cleaner without being harsher in the hand, so I'll be switching to that configuration.

[pskys2]

16 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

Today's range trip went well. The run ran for 150 rounds without problems.

 

All of my Clays/Clay Dot loads are super-dirty, however. Ramshot Zip under Blue Bullets 147gr is a whole lot cleaner without being harsher in the hand, so I'll be switching to that configuration.

I've noticed ClayDot has been getting dirtier lately too?  So much that I quit using it in my 45 acp light loads.

[ysrracer]

4 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I've noticed ClayDot has been getting dirtier lately too?  So much that I quit using it in my 45 acp light loads.

 

I use Clays in my .38 short colt with a 160gr coated bullet, and it's cleaner than Titegroup.

[Fishbreath]

18 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

I use Clays in my .38 short colt with a 160gr coated bullet, and it's cleaner than Titegroup.

 

I haven't tried Hodgdon-brand Clays yet, but I haven't yet come across a 160gr/Clays load that doesn't end up with me spending an hour with dental picks and a magnifying glass to clear all the lead fouling off.

 

That's the main reason behind my 147gr switch. This gun just does not care for the classic 160gr .38 Short Colt, it seems.

[pskys2]

22 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

I use Clays in my .38 short colt with a 160gr coated bullet, and it's cleaner than Titegroup.

Agreed, Tite leaves little granules.  Clays/ClayDot previously used just left soot.  I'm also still using it in my SC as I have quite a bit left.  But the newest cannisters I was using left so much in my ACP light loads, with 3 different bullets, that the moons wouldn't drop in.  Switched to Ramshot Competition and it leaves occassional minute granules but they don't hinder the moons.

I'm wondering if its a further new mix, or rushed QC?