Prize tables & distribution

[Al Capizzo]

The two clubs I shoot with each put on a fairly big match each year (Texas State Open Championship and Steel Challenge State Championship),  and every year there is discussion of how to run the prize table. I'd like to hear any thoughts and suggestions you folks might have.

We've done random drawings for prizes, cash and or plaques for class placement. We've gone strictly order of finish.

This year we're going to try giving out raffle tickets (probably ten or fifteen) with the shooter's packet.  The vendors will have the prizes on display at their own tables and people can put as many as they want in a can at each vendor's table. If SV has provided a frame and thats what you want, put all your tickets in their bucket and hope you win.  Don't care about open guns, don't put your tickets in at the vendor with the comped barrel, etc.

We're hoping this will generate interest at the vendor tables, as well as interest from sponsors.

What do y'all think??  

[benos]

Al,

My view is somewhat hardcore on prize tables. Although I do  like your specific sponsor/raffle ticket idea, I wouldn't like it if it was the only way prizes were given out at a match.

You have to remember I'm from the 'ol days when the prize table was ONLY in order of overall finish - there were not any classes. This is how I think it should be. I feel competition should reward qualities such as excellence, perserverence, toughness, etc.... Personally, I hated going to matches where the prizes were given out with a random drawing - you might just as well stay home and roll the dice over the internet to see who "wins."

I touched on this subject on my the "Hate" page in my actual website under the title - "The Degeneration of American Sport."

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/hate.html#degeneration

Also, I feel there is a psychological issue at work there. I remember the feelings I had when I won my first prize at a match I traveled to - a Bar-sto barrel - and later, when I won almost $30,000 at the masters - I felt exactly the same each time. The amount of the prize wasn't the issue, the issue was that I won something (that represented the work I put in).

Another issue could be that - once something is in place, it's difficult to change it. All the matches we shoot today started out as heads up matches, with the prizes given out in order of finish. So, when us "old schoolers" go to matches with a random drawing prize table, we bitch. Now say there was NEVER any prizes at the matches, then we would be functoning from that history and we would not feel the way do now (because of our past history).

be

[Flexmoney]

After thinking about it...Brain's post makes sense.  That is what competition is all about.  Hell, that is what a free market economy is all about.  To the victor, goes the spoils.

I would not, however, want to have to pay a higher match fee to stock the table.  I don't think its up to me to subsidize professional shooters.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 7:40 pm on June 25, 2001)

[Bill H]

I feel the same as Brian. I have had many years without winning anything but I keep shooting and practicing. When it comes together it really feels like you earned it.

We have a local club that puts on a 3 gun match now and then. The problem is you are only allowed one award.Say you win the match and the rifle,shotgun and handgun stages ---you would get high overall money but nothing for the other 3 things you won.It goes down the line to whoever didn't win anything yet. Could be 4th in rifle gets the cash.  

Does that bother me--Yes because did 4th place  shoot up 500 rds practicing (maybe) or did he just show up and get lucky?Should 4th be paid over 1st?People get to the top by practice and shooting large quantities of ammo.You guys know that isn't cheap.

I am well aware of the desires of the club to make everybody happy but hey we are big boys and we know how these things work.Award the WINNERS. Have a random drawing for other things but pay the people that are winning the match.

I know some people will never be in a position to place in a match and I will  never be a Todd or Robbie but when your time does come you don't want it taken from you.

[38supPat]

While not a "Pro" shooter I do not think its fair to say extra match fee's stock the prize table in their favor. There are actually very few shooters who can make a living at this. Most subsidize their earnings by teaching, not from prize tables. As Brian said you get the same excitement from winning a $25 part as you do from a major cash prize, and most matches do not pay anywhere close to good money. When a top golfer can pull in a 6 figure prize for one tournament, even the 10,000 prize for Bianchi seems weak. Consider that a top shooter might spend $4000 on a gun $500 on leather a couple thousand in Practice ammo, more for backup parts, batteries, match fee's, hotels, gas etc just to shoot that one match, they don't actually earn that much. And I believe anyone here could do it. If you saved the money and SERIOUSLY trained, you could do it too. It's about earning something for the work put in. If you don't wish to work to develop the skill level necessary to earn a prize, don't b**** about the ones that do (this is not directed at anyone in particular, especially no one from this board, I just gotta vent as it seem in the last couple of years both our province's matches and our Nationals Have decided it if more fair to reward people who don't want to put out effort but moan that they don't get prizes, than to those, in any class, who do.)

Worst of all, having been to previous matches where they have handed out prizes in order of finish that later revert to raffles, and listening to newer match officials excuse that it is traditional to do this drives me insane.

Reward skill, not moaners who want payment for non-effort (this applies in more situations in life too, not just shooting)

Pat

[Al Capizzo]

Thanks for the replies so far.  I can absolutely agree,  from a competitors perspective, prizes should go in order of finish.

The other side of the coin though , is the prize table is as much promotion for the sponsors as reward for the shooters.  It is tough to keep a balance.  Sponsors want to get their product into shooters hands. If a C-class shooter wins a mag funnel or fiber optic front sight or whatever, and he tells his buddies how great this gadget is, that is what the sponsors want. Not for a GM to win another widget so he can throw it in a drawer or sell it on the internet.

After all, they are business people, and they do SUPPORT our game.

Just another perspective.

I can't seem to win crap no matter how its done!

[38supPat]

You will. But if you earned it, you will savour it more.

Pat

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 5:43 pm on June 25, 2001)

[Duane Thomas]

I have a real problem with the idea that the guy who wins shouldn't get the prize. But you seem to see this idea a lot, especially when you have one guy who wins all the time. For instance, at our local weekly plate match, the guy who won, every single night for months, was Bob Wells. And so, for months on end, every time, Bob got the prize. Now, it wasn't much, a t-shirt or something, but he earned it, he got it. And you know what, no one had a problem with that, we all loved watching Bob shoot. He was a total gentleman, and could always find a kind word to say to anyone...after he kicked your ass.

Then the folks running the plate shoot decided, "It's not fair to have the same guy winning the match every time." I don't see why, because, to my knowledge at least, no one was complaining, everyone was having a good time. So they started making the prize a random drawing. And I quit shooting it (I've won out there twice) and Bob quit shooting it. When they asked me what I thought about the new prize policy, I told them, "I think it sucks. The guy who wins should get the prize. And if you've got one guy who's better than everyone else, then guess what, he gets the prize every time. That's just the way it goes."

For awhile there IPSC Grandmaster Richard Morgan was winning every Glock shoot in our area, the prize was always a free gun, and finally the folks running the match told him, "If you win we're going to give the prize to the second place guy. We can't have you constantly winning the free gun. Now, we're not saying you can't shoot the match, just that if you win we're giving the prize to someone else."

Say WHAT?

That's like saying to Rob Leatham, "I'm sorry, but if you win the Nationals this year we're going to give the trophy to someone else. You've just won this thing TOO many times already. It's not fair to the other shooters."

The idea of rewarding excellence seems to be a foreign concept to so many people. Really, I blame the welfare state. I'm serious. The idea that mediocrity should be rewarded has infected other aspects of our society. "All men were created equal" does not mean it's a bad thing that some people are better than others, just that everyone has an equal chance at the brass ring. If someone works their butt off, we give their money to some fat, lazy welfare whore. If a shooter works his butt off to the point he can come in first place, we have a raffle to see who should get the prize. God forbid that we should admit the better shooter IS the better shooter, and thus deserves the rewards of their hard work.

Jesus wept.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 11:13 pm on June 25, 2001)

[Ron Ankeny]

Back in the old PPC days, when prizes were given in the order of finish, I used to win a trinket every now and then. Now I am shooting IPSC and I shoot just good enough to be a loser.

I wonder why it is that shooters work their asses off to run with the big dawgs, but of course they just aren't good enough to come out on top. So really good shooters end up in the cellar in the master class or overall while the prizes go to sandbaggers in the B, C and D classes Where is the justice in that?

[Flexmoney]

Pat said,

"While not a "Pro" shooter I do not think its fair to say extra match fee's stock the prize table in their favor. "

----

I think that was for me.

Just want to be clear.  I have never seen a prize table.  Don't know squat about how it works.  I too, think those that perform should be the ones to receive any offered reward.  I just don't want to have to pay any extra money to shoot a match.  As a new(er) shooter I can't afford it.  I just hope it doesn't work that way.  The sponsors should be putting up the prizes.  (as posted earlier) They are the business end of the shooting.

So...do match fees go toward stocking the prize table at big matches?

[38supPat]

That was directed at no one in particular, but yes match fees do add to the prize table a bit, though most of what I've seen is donated merchandise. And usually the ones that do offer prizes to placement do so in such a fashion that every class gets a shot at the table in order of finish.

Pat

[Al Capizzo]

Some part of entry fees generally go towards a prize table. It depends on the size of the match but usually there are some donated prizes and some bought from sponsors at serious discounts.

There has been some discussion in our area about lowering entry fees and going back to trophy only matches.

Don't know how this will go over with shooter or vendors though.

[Flexmoney]

This is obviously an issue.

I can only give my perspective as a new shooter.  I have been shooting competitively for about a year now.  I am ranked a "C" class, but I am honestly a "B" class shooter.  (The two classifier that I have shot this year haven't been posted.)

Anyway...

This is an expensive sport to get into.  More expensive than golf.  I try to look at what it cost me to shoot a match.  Ammo, travel...total cost.  I want to shoot in as many matches as I can.  I am after the experience, not the prizes.  I just flat can't afford to shoot matches with higher entry fees.  

For example:  I plan to go to the Nationals this year.  I doubt that I will shoot though.  Since I didn't "win" a slot, it will cost me more if I want to shoot ($50 right?).  That is nothing more than me paying to subsidize the match.

I like the trophy idea.  

[benos]

One last thing - FWIW - In the ol days, before I had any sponsorship, it really "helped" me if I actually won something at a match. At that time, it was simple - I couldn't afford or justify, being a working family man, traveling to shoot. However, if I came home with a prize, then I could justify using the money I got for that prize to go to the next match. As little as a couple hunderd dollars could make all the difference in the world. It was like "free" money, although the reality was the opposite.

My first year of taveling and competing was ruled by the simple idea that if I won something at the match I was at, I could afford to go to the next one. If I didn't win anything, I didn't go. So in that sense, winning something was a powerful motivator.

Do what you will with that.

be

[38supPat]

I think the different entry fees are a big mistake for the reason you listed. If they want to encourage more people to show up they should make it easier, the Nationals Open/Limited have not filled in years. If they want more shooters to goto the area matches and earn slots, its good enough just to give them first shot at the nationals, but then after the due date, allow anyone who wants one to apply with no added cost. They could also try a bring your buddy program like Bianchi.

Pat

[PaulW]

I have seen both types of matches, random draw and in order of finish.  I guess the whole concept of in order of finish was to appease the masses.  Lets face it, the majority of people shooting fall into the B,C, and D class.  These people don't have a chance at that new gun or other nice prize if you go in order of finish.  Now with enough winning and bitching from the masses they came up with the random idea.  It's a tough one to call.  Yes the top guys should be recognized for their accomplishments, but without the support of the B, C, and D class shooters you may not even have a match.  See where I'm coming from?  It's this whole class thing.  Does a 1st place D class shooter not accomplish the same thing as the GM who won HOA?  No, but can't you hear his argument?  Maybe instead of order of finish go with HOA, 1st Gm, 1st M, 1st A, on down to 1st D class, then do 2nd place the same way and so on. No easy answer either way.

[38supPat]

That's generally the best way. As long as the payouts are fair.

Pat

[Chriss Grube]

I have to agree with Flexmoney. Lower the match fee and shoot for trophies. The ELS and Mid Atlantic sections are 35-40 bucks. The Area 8 is 110. GMAFB. It will cost me 250 or more to shoot it. I'm not shooting to make a living so make it reasonable for everyone. If it comes down to shooting a 40 dollar match and going to Nationals guess where I'm going! The problem is everybody wants to win something, BS if you place high enough you win if not tough shit. I've seen matches where the 100 place guys are going to the prize table. Top three in each class and done.

[Bill H]

Chris with all that new "Todd Knowledge" you should be getting up to some prize tables soon.  

The last big steel match I went to paid out by the "Lewis System. When I got home my wife asked how I did. I said whatever they pay down to I will be the next one. They paid to 5th place and I was 6th. Wish I could call my shots that good.

Bill Hearne

[Chriss Grube]

Bill,

I know what you mean. At Palmyra's big steel match I either shoot to slow or just a little too fast. I missed money by 2 or 3 slots. I'll still take the lower fee even if I do win. The new bride thinks I have enough toys as is. The new "Todd Knowledge" is coming along nicely. We'll see how it works out at the ELS and the Mid Atlantic. I should take my class at one of them. Unless I get a serious case of HUTA. Then it's off to B.

[benos]

Paul,

Your's is the classic "argument." It's a complex issue. To fully explain, I'd have to post my "Degeneration of American Sport" rambling from my Hate page.

I might be able to nutshell today's feeling - What is the point of getting together and having a competition? Is it too test and reward excellence (not "stages" of excellence, but just excellence), or is it to have a social event and have fun? Especially in my earlier years (when I was winning more - big surprise), I went to the competitions for 2 reasons - to learn, and to do the best I possibly could. If I happened to win - great, but I didn't go to win "in the middle." (Or  to socialize.) So that's where I'm coming from. I was at these competitons when there were no classes and the matches sold out. The spirit was much more intense and fierce.

If improvement is what you're after, don't be satisfied with "accomplishment." (I know that statement could be taken/interpretted many ways.)

be

[PaulW]

Brian,

Interesting comments.  As long as I have been shooting, there have been classes.  Thus I have no experience in such.  But your viewpoint is very valid when you break down"why".  Why are we here, why are we holding the Match, why is it any different then a monthly match?  Why do we give away prizes.  I guess if you listen the people who complain, we would only hold "trophy" matches.  Funny thing is no one ever complains when the same guy win's all the local matches.  It is complex, and there are many ego's out there.  

[38supPat]

This might be nasty to say and it's not directed at anyone but there have been days wher I wished the match fee's were alot higher. So that only the people who really want to compete will pay up and the whiners won't show. There's almost never whining about prizes at the US Nationals (at least not that I've heard) the people who are there want to compete not socialize.

Pat

[Chriss Grube]

Pat,

I'm not so sure about that! I've heard more pissing and moaning at the bigger matches. Last year at the area 8 match I had a guy whack a no shoot steel twice. I thought he was going to start crying the way he was bitching. I personally painted the thing right before he shoot and stood there watching him shoot it. You get whiners no matter how big. If somethings on the line it seems to get worse. I don't give a damn about the classes I look at how I did against the big dogs. I like the lower fee because I get to shoot more. The state needs to give me a raise so I can go shoot more!

[Al Capizzo]

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to respond.  I brought this up to see what people in other parts of the country thought, and because there is obviously a group of serious competitors here.  

I can't say I heard anything that I didn't expect too, but it is interesting that the same concerns pop up all over N. America.

Its the Global Village/ Global Pistol Range!