Ben Stoeger doubles vs controlled pairs

[G-Lo246]

Hello all,

 

I am new to USPSA and practical shooting. I came across Ben Stoeger’s doubles and controlled pairs drills. Can someone describe more in depth what the difference is between the two drills and what “should” be taken from them. 
 

Thanks!

[limitedgun]

I use the doubles drill to define and diagnose deficiencies in grip. 90% of the time for me it really does not show up until 10 yards and it is almost always my support hand needing to grip more. The doubles drill is done at the yardages prescribed and is strictly just pulling the trigger as fast as you can and diagnosing by that second shot. Controlled pairs are just simply 2 A's or an A and an EXTREMELY close Charlie.

[B585]

3 hours ago, limitedgun said:

I use the doubles drill to define and diagnose deficiencies in grip. 90% of the time for me it really does not show up until 10 yards and it is almost always my support hand needing to grip more. The doubles drill is done at the yardages prescribed and is strictly just pulling the trigger as fast as you can and diagnosing by that second shot. Controlled pairs are just simply 2 A's or an A and an EXTREMELY close Charlie.

This.  My understanding of controlled pairs is you are supposed to pull the trigger on the second shot the EXACT MOMENT the sight picture is acceptable on the second shot.  On the Doubles drill you are pulling the trigger as fast as you can.   Both are great drills IMO.  Controlled pairs helped me see things faster and learn what I could get away with whereas doubles teaches you grip/trigger press issues.

[Blackstone45]

My understanding of doubles is it helps diagnose whether your grip on autopilot is returning the gun down to the original point of aim, and if you're jerking the second shot.

[IVC]

This comes down to the difference between predictive and reactive shooting.

 

In predictive shooting, you don't have time to go through the mental process of "I see the sights, I see acceptable sight picture, I am pulling the trigger" on the second shot. Instead, you go through that process on the first shot, and you know how well you grip the gun and how your gun behaves in recoil, so you can pull the trigger in correct timing for the second shot. The second shot is still aimed (not a contradiction), but you are not reacting to the sight picture, you are observing the sight picture as you fire the shot (you're still calling the shot).

 

It's extremely important to remember that If you don't see the sights on the second shot it's a wasted shot since you don't know where it went, you don't know whether you're doing it right, you don't know what or by how much to fix, etc. The derogatory "double tap" term describes precisely this case, where the second shot ends up not only being random, but when the shooter is surprised by the Alpha-Mike on the target because he has no clue what happened on that second shot. 

 

In reactive shooting, you treat the second shot as you would any initial shot on the, e.g., draw, reload or transition. It is a completely separate shot that requires seeing the sights, recognizing the sight picture and pulling the trigger. It takes longer, it's more accurate, it doesn't require refined grip or recoil control, and it doesn't require developed shot-calling. The reason you can get away with more slop is because you're taking time to remove the slop. For example, if the recoil makes your gun jump unpredictably, you can still do it because you're waiting to get the sights on target before starting on the next shot. Compare to predictive shooting, where the second shot would end up in an unpredictable location due to the unpredictable recoil of the gun. 

 

In reactive shooting drill, it's very important to remember that you still have to be able to "pull the trigger as fast as you can without disturbing the sight picture." The limiting factor here should be how fast the gun returns to the target, how fast it settles and how fast you can recognize it. If you see the sights on the target and are not shooting you're too slow for this drill. If you don't have trigger control at this level, work on a simple timed drill - aim at the target and on buzzer just pull the trigger as fast as you can without missing. This is a bread-and-butter skill of action shooting and will tell you how accurate you can be at speed (should be plenty).  

 

To summarize (and there are many other details), in both cases you're working on your recoil control and shot calling (which is critical), but in one case you're counting on your skill to get the second shot (and recognize when you miss), while in the other case you are counting on your vision to give you the fast cue (and also recognize when you miss).

 

Another way to look at it is that when you shoot fast, say a Bill Drill, you can either pull the trigger very fast and enjoy observing the ride (just mentally recording where the shots were as the gun fired), or you can recognize the sights on each shot and only pull the trigger when your vision tells you to. The latter will give you better groups (the more skill you have the smaller the difference between the two), but at the cost of extra time. 

 

Yet another way to think about the difference between the two is that when you shoot doubles, your "wobble zone" is defined by your fundamentals including grip, while when shooting pairs your "wobble zone" is just that of pulling the trigger fast (which in itself is larger than the "wobble zone" of the slow, bullseye trigger press). You have to take into account that you're working off of acceptable sight picture and not perfect sight picture, but the idea is the same.

 

Hope this helps you... 

[scgun]

42 minutes ago, IVC said:

This comes down to the difference between predictive and reactive shooting.

 

In predictive shooting, you don't have time to go through the mental process of "I see the sights, I see acceptable sight picture, I am pulling the trigger" on the second shot. Instead, you go through that process on the first shot, and you know how well you grip the gun and how your gun behaves in recoil, so you can pull the trigger in correct timing for the second shot. The second shot is still aimed (not a contradiction), but you are not reacting to the sight picture, you are observing the sight picture as you fire the shot (you're still calling the shot).

 

It's extremely important to remember that If you don't see the sights on the second shot it's a wasted shot since you don't know where it went, you don't know whether you're doing it right, you don't know what or by how much to fix, etc. The derogatory "double tap" term describes precisely this case, where the second shot ends up not only being random, but when the shooter is surprised by the Alpha-Mike on the target because he has no clue what happened on that second shot. 

 

In reactive shooting, you treat the second shot as you would any initial shot on the, e.g., draw, reload or transition. It is a completely separate shot that requires seeing the sights, recognizing the sight picture and pulling the trigger. It takes longer, it's more accurate, it doesn't require refined grip or recoil control, and it doesn't require developed shot-calling. The reason you can get away with more slop is because you're taking time to remove the slop. For example, if the recoil makes your gun jump unpredictably, you can still do it because you're waiting to get the sights on target before starting on the next shot. Compare to predictive shooting, where the second shot would end up in an unpredictable location due to the unpredictable recoil of the gun. 

 

In reactive shooting drill, it's very important to remember that you still have to be able to "pull the trigger as fast as you can without disturbing the sight picture." The limiting factor here should be how fast the gun returns to the target, how fast it settles and how fast you can recognize it. If you see the sights on the target and are not shooting you're too slow for this drill. If you don't have trigger control at this level, work on a simple timed drill - aim at the target and on buzzer just pull the trigger as fast as you can without missing. This is a bread-and-butter skill of action shooting and will tell you how accurate you can be at speed (should be plenty).  

 

To summarize (and there are many other details), in both cases you're working on your recoil control and shot calling (which is critical), but in one case you're counting on your skill to get the second shot (and recognize when you miss), while in the other case you are counting on your vision to give you the fast cue (and also recognize when you miss).

 

Another way to look at it is that when you shoot fast, say a Bill Drill, you can either pull the trigger very fast and enjoy observing the ride (just mentally recording where the shots were as the gun fired), or you can recognize the sights on each shot and only pull the trigger when your vision tells you to. The latter will give you better groups (the more skill you have the smaller the difference between the two), but at the cost of extra time. 

 

Yet another way to think about the difference between the two is that when you shoot doubles, your "wobble zone" is defined by your fundamentals including grip, while when shooting pairs your "wobble zone" is just that of pulling the trigger fast (which in itself is larger than the "wobble zone" of the slow, bullseye trigger press). You have to take into account that you're working off of acceptable sight picture and not perfect sight picture, but the idea is the same.

 

Hope this helps you... 

makes sense 

[G-Lo246]

Thanks for all the replies! Every piece of info/knowledge is extremely helpful.

[B585]

7 hours ago, IVC said:

This comes down to the difference between predictive and reactive shooting.

 

In predictive shooting, you don't have time to go through the mental process of "I see the sights, I see acceptable sight picture, I am pulling the trigger" on the second shot. Instead, you go through that process on the first shot, and you know how well you grip the gun and how your gun behaves in recoil, so you can pull the trigger in correct timing for the second shot. The second shot is still aimed (not a contradiction), but you are not reacting to the sight picture, you are observing the sight picture as you fire the shot (you're still calling the shot).

 

It's extremely important to remember that If you don't see the sights on the second shot it's a wasted shot since you don't know where it went, you don't know whether you're doing it right, you don't know what or by how much to fix, etc. The derogatory "double tap" term describes precisely this case, where the second shot ends up not only being random, but when the shooter is surprised by the Alpha-Mike on the target because he has no clue what happened on that second shot. 

 

In reactive shooting, you treat the second shot as you would any initial shot on the, e.g., draw, reload or transition. It is a completely separate shot that requires seeing the sights, recognizing the sight picture and pulling the trigger. It takes longer, it's more accurate, it doesn't require refined grip or recoil control, and it doesn't require developed shot-calling. The reason you can get away with more slop is because you're taking time to remove the slop. For example, if the recoil makes your gun jump unpredictably, you can still do it because you're waiting to get the sights on target before starting on the next shot. Compare to predictive shooting, where the second shot would end up in an unpredictable location due to the unpredictable recoil of the gun. 

 

In reactive shooting drill, it's very important to remember that you still have to be able to "pull the trigger as fast as you can without disturbing the sight picture." The limiting factor here should be how fast the gun returns to the target, how fast it settles and how fast you can recognize it. If you see the sights on the target and are not shooting you're too slow for this drill. If you don't have trigger control at this level, work on a simple timed drill - aim at the target and on buzzer just pull the trigger as fast as you can without missing. This is a bread-and-butter skill of action shooting and will tell you how accurate you can be at speed (should be plenty).  

 

To summarize (and there are many other details), in both cases you're working on your recoil control and shot calling (which is critical), but in one case you're counting on your skill to get the second shot (and recognize when you miss), while in the other case you are counting on your vision to give you the fast cue (and also recognize when you miss).

 

Another way to look at it is that when you shoot fast, say a Bill Drill, you can either pull the trigger very fast and enjoy observing the ride (just mentally recording where the shots were as the gun fired), or you can recognize the sights on each shot and only pull the trigger when your vision tells you to. The latter will give you better groups (the more skill you have the smaller the difference between the two), but at the cost of extra time. 

 

Yet another way to think about the difference between the two is that when you shoot doubles, your "wobble zone" is defined by your fundamentals including grip, while when shooting pairs your "wobble zone" is just that of pulling the trigger fast (which in itself is larger than the "wobble zone" of the slow, bullseye trigger press). You have to take into account that you're working off of acceptable sight picture and not perfect sight picture, but the idea is the same.

 

Hope this helps you... 

Great response!!!!

[matto6]

This thread has the video to Ben describing it!
 

 

[Darrell]

I watched a few of his video's and change my grip to squeeze more with my support hand and it helped tremendously. I used to pull shots to the left and right and now after a few drills I'm no longer pulling and groups are tighter. Most of the matches I shoot now are local practical pistol that has PAR time stages so accuracy is important.