S&w 5906pc 5 Inch Production Gun

[Flexmoney]

And to think that I can't put a 40 barrel in a Glock 20 and run it in Production becasue "Glock doesn't make a G20 in 40."

[Kimberkid]

Flex, I'll guess that you havent tried it, but a buddy of mine shoots .40 in his G20 all the time. He didnt change anything, the gun just runs anyways. Only difference in 10mm and .40 is the overall length anyways, give it a try. If it runs and someone tries to tell you that it isnt allowed, tell them its a factory gun and the ammo fits, so away we go.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I have a 4" gun and IF.. only IF S&W were to make one that i could afford and was available (afford i mean around $1000 which i feel is fair) I would definitley be shooting one. it's the one gun i shoot about as well as my beretta. However all of this waiting and extreme price is too much for me.

I also have the issue of "it's production" we shouldn't be allowing insanely hard to get firearms in this division.

[Chuck D]

All Smith has to do and I've called, written and spoke to them until I'm blue in the face is put the gun in the catalog and reasonably price it.

They make 'em but teh problem is that unless you know someone or "just get lucky"...you get "we don't make that" or "we don't offer that for sale to the general public" when you speak to them.

I wish they'd go back to the days when they offered an Open gun and a Limited gun like they did when Paul Liebenberg ran the P.C. If they did that plus add a 5 inch 5906 to the existing line of S&W 1911's they'd be a real player in the competiton market.

[JakeMartens]

From Tom Gordon at the PC:

Jake, Sorry, I don't have spec. sheets at the moment, I may have them later on , I'm hoping that these models become catolog guns ,in which case we will have alot ot info.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jakemartens@aol.com [mailto:Jakemartens@aol.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:41 PM

To: Gordon, Tom

Subject: Model 5906 5inch model

Tom,

Thank you very much for taking my call the other day. I was hoping that you could provide me with a complete spec list and hopefully a picture of the 5906 5inch model we spoke of.

Again thanks for your help,

Jake Martens

jakemartens@aol.com

[john flentz]

Hey, sports fans!

I guess I should get involved with this... Relax, the 5" IS legal under USPSA and IPSC rules, people have been shooting these all over at area matches, nationals, world for a couple of years now. John Amidon specifically wrote about this gun being legal in Front Sight about two years ago. I appreciate everyone voicing their opinions.

Here's mine:

I selected the 5906 because I thought it was the best pistol for production. The trigger is simply the best. You can get the double super smooth with no stacking around 6 lbs and the single as good as a 1911. Accuracy is stunning. Hey, PPC shooters use this stuff, as discussed in this thread.

Sights are your choice: LPA adjustable, Novak adjustable, which I'm really liking on my 4" PC5906 for IDPA, and Novak fixed.

Yes, runs have been limited. Yes, it is possible to get one, but timing has been important. The last run was sold out but for three before they were even completely built. As you can see, Tom is working on this being a catalog item. Anyone who is interested in one of these, please speak up!

If you see me at a match, I would be happy to show you the gun, let you bust off a few, whatever!

John

From Tom Gordon at the PC:

Jake, Sorry, I don't have spec. sheets at the moment, I may have them later on , I'm hoping that these models become catolog guns ,in which case we will have alot ot info.

-----Original Message-----

From: Jakemartens@aol.com [mailto:Jakemartens@aol.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 10:41 PM

To: Gordon, Tom

Subject: Model 5906 5inch model

Tom,

Thank you very much for taking my call the other day. I was hoping that you could provide me with a complete spec list and hopefully a picture of the 5906 5inch model we spoke of.

Again thanks for your help,

Jake Martens

jakemartens@aol.com

Edited October 26, 2005 by john flentz

[Flexmoney]

John,

I know you must feel that your gun is legal, or you wouldn't be using it.

However, if we look at the Production gun list, we see the S&W 5906 listed. Which would seem to indicate the standard 4 inch model that is mass produced?

Your gun is a 5 inch gun, hand built and fitted by the S&W Custom Shop, right?

You indicated that Amidon commented on this gun a couple of years ago. Do you recall the issue (I'd like to read it).

If it was a couple of years ago, then it would have fallen under the red rule book? The red book states:

Appendix E

Production gun only: Yes, 2000 made one year production

I find it hard to believe that S&W has produced 2,000 of the 5 inch PC5906 guns with a double action first shot?

Now we have the "Production Gun List". However, it does [not] seem to be actively maintained. I was told by my Area Director and by Amidon that the criteria to get on the list is 2,000 produced and available.

[Chuck Anderson]

I can pretty much guarantee that 2000 units has nothing to do with approval. This is pretty much in evidence by the whole SP-01/CZ 85 Combat II issue. Neither of these had 2000 units made when they were approved. My guess is the SP-01 probably does by now but certainly not the Combat II. The USPSA list is an off shoot of the IPSC list. The IPSC list, per Vince, does not use production numbers as a requirement. Also as evidenced by the CZ-85 issue. If a manufacturer calls a gun by the same name, even if it's different, it's going to be on the list. For example. If Glock were to manufacture a Vanek Triggered, Bar-Sto bbl, Bo-Mar sight uber Glock 17 and call it a Glock 17, it would be on the list.

[Flexmoney]

That certainly seems to be where we are at...regardless of the rules or the criteria.

[Flexmoney]

I sent an email off to my Area Director the other day.

This is the response I got back today that is worth sharing:

"I just got a reply back from JA on part of your message. We have cut the automatic link on the IPSC approved gun list. I have suggested to him that he go through the approved gun list (USPSA) and see if there are any problem areas we need to address, such as the one's you have listed.

I'll let you know when I know something."

[Steve Moneypenny]

I do not wish to be offensive to anyone here i'm going to state my belief on production I am not intentionally singleing out ANY maker or GUN but if your gun fits in my description so be it.

I think ANY gun which you cannot drive to a normal respectible dealer and say hey order me a BlaBla blaster in my favorite caliber should not be on the production list, If major distriburtos (examples only) like davidsons, RSR, Amchar etc do not even LIST this gun then it doesn't belong on the list. Waiting 2 or 3 MONTHS for a gun that is HAND BUILT is not fair the average shooter. why have to spend an insane amount of time and money researching a pistol.

Lastly we need a price cap i think. no MSRP over $1000 on a production gun. Was this divsion not MADE specifically for new shooters and to have a place for 9mm Minor to compete, to compete against SSP in IDPA.. it's a STOCK division....

[Kingman]

Production has become a sort of who can break the rules without getting caught. It is no longer production.

Hell I shoot open and it is becoming cheaper than production. This is no longer a division for a beginner to start out and have a competitive chance. I agree with Steves post.

If they can't make the numbers in that caliber then something needs to be done. 2000 is not all that big of a number for production. Hand built regardless is an unfair advantage.

[Flexmoney]

Good post.

While affordable is a goal, I don't think we need to have a price cap. There is a "back door" way into that, which is the 2,000 produced number. To be able to build and sell 2,000+ units, the gun will have to be offered at a marketable price.

Kinda like a stage with a kneeling start while you "fix a flat tire". That start position takes care of the need to have a "holster test". It is built in.

[Chuck D]

As a long time Smith collector, I wanted to purchase a 5 inch PC 5906 just to add to the collection. When I called...I had to play "50 questions" as to who I was and why I wanted one. At the end of the conversation...I was told a 50% deposit and a 2 to 3 month wait.

Mass Produced my.....

I'm sure they produced 2000 plus 5906 serial numbered RECEIVERS but I'd bet my last breath that they never mated them to 2000 5 inch uppers.

Herein lies what's truly wrong with P.D. and judging from the photos in the latest Front Sight...it was "a-o.k." to use at the '05 Nats.

[R112mercer]

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but how much of an advantage is all the gear being talked about? I understand having good equipment boosts confidence and makes a shooter's job easier, but isn't it talent in the end that wins the match? The National Champ in Production and L10 this year used a mostly stock Glock and a heaping spoonful of ability.

I've never been a fan of the whole "his stuff is better than mine, it's not fair" argument. USPSA is set-up so you'll be against similar equipment. Minor vs. minor, 10 rounds vs. 10 rounds in Production. If a new shooter is going to quit playing because the guy in first place who's put in years of practice, thousands of rounds, and thousands of dollars (not just on equipment, but travel fees, match entries, time off work, etc.) has fancy gear he was going to quit for some other reason later on any way. This was the most convenient excuse for him at the time.

The guys at the top have nice stuff because they put a lot of effort into this game and it makes the game more enjoyable to have good gear. I run into the "stock vs. not" argument at a local PPC-style league. One guy can have an old Police trade-in Smith Model 10 and somebody else can buy an STI Edge. Both are considered Stock (catalog items). But if the guy with the Model 10 even looks at the strain screw on his gun he gets knocked out of Stock Class. Never mind that the STI came with a 3# trigger from the factory. Funny thing is the guy with the Model 10 usually wins anyway. And the rookie with the Super Blammo 9000 ends up scratching his head wondering why he didn't get first place in his first year at the league, after all, he's got the best gear.

In the end Production Division still does what it was designed to do, just like the Provisional Single Stack Division will do. Give guys with off the shelf equipment and factory ammo a place where they can play on a fairly even playing field, equipment-wise. A cheap place to get hooked by using stuff they already have. But as long as there are guys who are willing to practice, pay attention to the fundamentals, and put forth more effort, the playing field will never be completely "even".

[Steve Moneypenny]

Rob, Nice reply, and on that scale i agree completely with you. But how long will it be until stock guns can't compete? 2 people of the same skill level the equipment can make one heck of a difference. That said, that's not the whole idea of production, it is to have a gun ANYONE can get easily and quickly, without spending thousands of dollars.

This has nothing really to do with S&W other than an example, i love the 5906 as a gun, and given the chance i have and would shoot them in competition again. The other aspect i have to point out is how is it good advertising for a company to have a specialty gun, even if it wins EVERYTHING it is not a relationship that can transfer into their line of pistols that they are trying to sell to police agencies and civilians.

[Chuck D]

"USPSA is set-up so you'll be against similar equipment."

A Performance Center "hand built" gun and an off the shelf Glock or CZ are not "similar equipment."

"off the shelf equipment"

Until the PC5906 makes it into a S&W product catalog and I can go into my local gun shop or call RSR or AmChar and order one by providing a stock number... it's not "off the shelf."

I agree fully with the rest of your post.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Chuck D

[R112mercer]

Steve, Chuck;

I'm glad you guys can see what I was trying to get at. I shoot in Revolver Division, where there is no equipment race. You either shoot a 625 at Major or get the hell out of the way in the race for second place (we know who gets first). But I have seen how a shooter with talent and drive can overcome equipment deficiencies and make a good showing for him/herself. I will concede that Smith gets in their own way when it comes to the competitive aspect of marketing their guns. As both of you pointed out, if the PC 5906 were a catalog item there wouldn't be as much to talk about on this topic.

[vincent]

Uhh, I must be missing something ...

Is this just an issue with the 5" version being hard to find? Or is this about the Custom Shop models in general?

The reason I ask is because it seems OK to buy a "mass produced" Glock 34 and send it to smith A for a couple hundred dollar trigger job, and barrel company B for a couple hundred dollar barrel upgrade, and then spend another few hundred to have custom shop C mill in some after market sights.

However getting the same work done at the custom shop of the company making the gun is no good? There are plenty of gunsmiths selling "Production ready" custom work packages. I don't see the difference.

Sounds like what you guys really want is for some of the modifications currently being allowed in Production division to be removed. Is this correct?

Now pulling on flame retardant underoos

[R112mercer]

Vincent;

No need for flame retardant with me, I agree. Is there a difference if a guy spends $300 for a gun and then puts $1200 worth of work into it vs. a guy who bought a $1500 gun? How about if one guy bought a $400 gun and poured $1500 into it, vs. another guy who bought a rare $1000 gun? No matter how hard you try guys are going to find ways to race up their guns. I think this is a good thing, it helps us learn more about the equipment and how to play the game. It also gives us something to talk about . The Genie's out of the bottle on the whole gunsmithing thing, you're not going to be able to put her back in. Now, about that asbestos suit...

[JakeMartens]

After going back and reading everyone's comments I can see both sides of the arguement.

But until the rules read: 100% stock, with no modifications internal or external, including triggers, sights, grips, barrels and any and all external controls (i.e. slide stops, safeties, mag releases) are permitted.

Then it will be up to the individual shooter to find a firearm that best suits his ability that he performs the best with with in the current rules.

[Patrick Sweeney]

No, the "100% box-stock, no-mods" rule simply shoves the problem back a step. With that rule, an enterprising competitor can simply take advantage of a friendly wholesaler or retailer, and cherry-pick a gun.

I recall talking to Jerry Miculek, when he was part of the Team S&W, talking about getting guns. He'd get a bale of guns (only a small exaggeration) and try them all. He'd hang on to the best and ship the rest back. (This was Pre-PC.) He had some wheelguns that were so accurate they were scary. Ditto Judy Wooley, who had a couple of S&Ws that would shoot MOA out of a Ransom rest.

So, your "box-stock" gun is one sent at random, and the enterprising guy's gun is one he's selected after testing dozens to a hundred guns. Works for me. Of course, the whining about the factory-sponsored shooters, who can go a step further, and have the company test-fire crew cherry-pick each days produciton for a couple of weeks, would be deafening.

If we're going to allow some mods, then let's make sure what can be done is out in the open. Sights? Barrels? Triggers? As far as I'm concerned, knock yourself out.

[RIIID]

As it stands right now in Production the "Rules" aren't being enforced. So all of this talk about PC/Custom shop guns legal or not is meaningless. I challenge USPSA to have an equipment check at the Nationals and every Area match in 2006. The biggest challenge is finding someone who has the knowledge of what is legal for every gun.

Rich

[Carlos]

Vincent wrote: "Uhh, I must be missing something ... Is this just an issue with the 5" version being hard to find? Or is this about the Custom Shop models in general?"

To clarify:

1) There is only one model of the 5906 and it only comes in one barrel length: 4". These can be found new & used (even police trade ins) on gunbroker.com or auctionarms.com It does not have a barrel bushing & is similar to other steel frame 9mm Smith autos based on the Model 59 / double stack magazine guns. It IS listed on the website under regular S&W guns. I think it sells for $500 to $600 new. Its allowed in IDPA.

2) The gun we are talking about is the "PC" and has been in use in USPSA since Production Division began. They may add them to the catalog in the future. The letters PC stands for "Performance Center" The PC model can be built up with your choice of the 4", 5" or 6" slide/barrel (see photo above). All versions (4",5" & 6") are PCs (specifically, they are the model PC5906). Unlike the non-PC, the PCs have the spherical barrel bushing and with special match barrels, are all super accurate (as in PPC/50 yards accurate). You can also have yours built by the PC with your choice of slide serrations/types, different hammers, different de-cocker/safety levers, the magazine well, sight options listed above, etc.

Whatever configuration you want though, its still the Production approved, Model PC5906 because this is what is printed on the box when it arrives from the PC: "PC5906." Some guns might also have markings like "PPC" on the slide (as pictured above) . These PCs are not listed in the catalog or website and can only be ordered in advance on certain occassions (USA only as far as I know) through the PC following John's Flentz' advice in his post above (thanks for the info).

Now, an option mentioned above, for Production shooters wanting a PC but not willing to wait or pay the same price, is to buy the regular 5906, then, order at a reduced cost from the PC, the slide & barrel for the PC and have it fitted to your frame by a competent gunsmith. Having a Production gun built for you in this way should save time & a few $$$. I would also go for the PC 5906 magazine well, hammer, and the Bo Mar sights.

All of this still seemed like a hassle & several months ago I gave up trying to find one of these PC guns; they almost never come up for sale used & even then, they are too much $$$ for me. I am not interested in the wait for having one built up brand new by the PC or another Production gun builder. They do appear to be the best Production gun money can buy though.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

Edited November 3, 2005 by Carlos

[Carlos]

Correction: looks like the PC5906 magwell is more difficult to obtain than I first thought:

THIS LINK to the S&W forum explains it and has yet another version/configuration of the PC 5906 pictured for your viewing pleasure.